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Sonic Farm/MAS Bass Amp project.

#61
Yeah man---
There is some thread where some of the troll (a certain oceanic version of a arboreal primate) faction are at it again saying that there is no difference between power amps---they all sound the same. Well they most certainly don't. I have the new Ice 700 module. The new module that a lot of amp guys are using these days.. It ain't close to the Ice 1000 in terms of power and control. And not just at high volume.The 700 sounds a tiny amount better in terms of fidelity, but the note envelope isn't as good. I've had them both on lots of gigs. I'd switch back and forth between sets. The 1000---in terms of function is much better. I'm hoping that the new 1200 module will be as good or better than the 1000, but I'm a superstitious guy. I believe that a lot of great sounding gear is a product of great engineering and manufacturing---but a lot is also the serendipity of how the components function together. A well-meaning tech replaced all of the op amps in my IVP preamp with the latest, best spec op amps. Better in every way as far as all of the measurements available. It sounded like crap. Dry and analytical. I had to search to find the original op amps. (I didn't want to hurt his feelings---he did it for nothing).

The reason I'm saying this--
The amp will be designed to accommodate either the 1000 or 1200 modules. I talked to Ice and the 1000 is very popular and will be available for quite a while.
 
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#62
One thing I love about the "a watt is a watt/power amps dont matter" debate, is that it tells me instantly whose opinions to discard, because either their ears are shot, or (more likely) they 'listen with their eyes' and not with their ears.

If you A/B a similarly rated ICE module against a lead sled against a PLX (for example) and think that they perform identically, you might as well get a POS bass amp, because your ears arent working properly to begin with.

So, yeah, calling total BS on "a watt is a watt". Feel free to disagree, but thats where I'm at with it, based on personal experience.
 
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#63
I had a CA9 and moved to a PLX3602 - didn't give up a thing, actually the PLX has a bit more slam - but I have gear that has the headroom to drive it. I still have the PLX and I've gone back and forth using the preamp out of the Studio1200 into the QSC against the integrated amp (ICE1000asp) and they stack up very well. There is a subtle difference in tone and feel due to some of the circuitry I use between the pre and power amp, and I actually prefer the integrated amp by a small margin. I've run them way louder than most folks would ever dare, and the big ICE handles Bb without flinching. The 1000 and new 700 are nothing like the bridged 250 modules that have been widely used over the past few years. The 1000 has more slam than the 700, but it should as it has another 500 watts on tap (@4 ohms). It's all about headroom. @Fuzzbass has been slamming his into big four ohm rigs with his active 5'ers in his loud hard rock band for quite some time now, and I haven't heard him complain of a lack of volume, punch, balls, or what have you. He was using pre/power rigs for years prior. The 1000 has been out for a long time, but most chose not to use it, likely due to cost and the never ending quest to go smaller. Which is a shame (but good for Mike and I) because it's outstanding. The new modules that are coming out and that will likely start showing up in most of the offerings will definitely start changing perceptions.
 
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#64
What's the plan for preamp tube(s) in the new amp? I understand the Sonic Farm 2di4's tube was susceptible to going microphonic due to heavy vibrations, which is why (when I owned/gigged one) I ran it sitting on the ground instead of atop a cab. Will the new amp use a different tube(s) to surmount that issue?

EDIT: I understand the issue relates to EF86 NOS tubes.
 
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#65
N. Kentucky Bass said:
What's the plan for preamp tube(s) in the new amp? I understand the Sonic Farm 2di4's tube was susceptible to going microphonic due to heavy vibrations, which is why (when I owned/gigged one) I ran it sitting on the ground instead of atop a cab. Will the new amp use a different tube(s) to surmount that issue?
Click to expand...

man, I hadnt heard that... I guess I'll consider putting a gramma pad or similar foam between them. I wonder if anyone has tried rolling tubes in their 2DI4. Its definitely a "not broke, dont fix" thing, but I felt the same way about my 750 before I swapped out the stock tubes for NOS telefunkens, and that was a night and day experience
 
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#66
JGR said:
I had a CA9 and moved to a PLX3602 - didn't give up a thing, actually the PLX has a bit more slam - but I have gear that has the headroom to drive it. I still have the PLX and I've gone back and forth using the preamp out of the Studio1200 into the QSC against the integrated amp (ICE1000asp) and they stack up very well. There is a subtle difference in tone and feel due to some of the circuitry I use between the pre and power amp, and I actually prefer the integrated amp by a small margin. I've run them way louder than most folks would ever dare, and the big ICE handles Bb without flinching. The 1000 and new 700 are nothing like the bridged 250 modules that have been widely used over the past few years. The 1000 has more slam than the 700, but it should as it has another 500 watts on tap (@4 ohms). It's all about headroom. @Fuzzbass has been slamming his into big four ohm rigs with his active 5'ers in his loud hard rock band for quite some time now, and I haven't heard him complain of a lack of volume, punch, balls, or what have you. He was using pre/power rigs for years prior. The 1000 has been out for a long time, but most chose not to use it, likely due to cost and the never ending quest to go smaller. Which is a shame (but good for Mike and I) because it's outstanding. The new modules that are coming out and that will likely start showing up in most of the offerings will definitely start changing perceptions.
Click to expand...

I agree that the 1000 destroys the 250 modules, and I think that as nice as the 700 sounds, tonally, it doesnt have the slam and impact of the 1000. I could care less about the next best thing (1200) as the 1000w amp is the first class D unit that I like as much (or better) than the CA amps.

The other nice thing about the 1000w is that (according to the guy who built mine) its incredible sturdy/overbuilt/stable, and can run at 2.7 ohms.
 
#67
Sorry if this is a little divergent to the purposes of this thread, but are the ICE modules available individually to end users? I've been trying to find a low power compact power amp to use with a tube preamp I have, but haven't had any luck finding anything. So far my only alternative is to buy one intended for guitar, buy a kit of unknown quality intended for home hifi use or buy a mini bass amp and only use the power section. A 250 ICE module would suit my needs and I have the electronics skills for a DIY project, but don't know how to obtain a module.
 
#69
Yes---pentode tubes are inherently more microphonic. We're sticking with the EF86 pentode tube. We're looking at several options. There are some really good vibration-reducing feet out there that are quite effective. Another option is to include a piece of vibration reducing foam with the unit. It'll be the same footprint as the amp and will not be very thick. Fits perfectly with the amp in a bag. The thing that I've been using ---a gel pack for hot or cold therapy. Sounds like a weird thing to use but it's really effective and fits in the bag with the amp. I've been researching this a lot. There are a lot of solutions out there. Tube dampers are also good. The biggest thing is finding the least microphonic tube out there. There is a big difference from tube to tube. We pay extra to have all of the tubes checked for microphonics before the distributor ships them. In talking to some experts they've said that the best new tubes are much better as far as microphonics. (as compared to NOS)

This brings up another discussion. ALL tubes are microphonic to varying degrees. ANY amp or preamp that sits on top of a bass speaker will display microphonics. This can have subtle to obvious effects. There is a guy here on TB (have to look him up) that is selling a nifty aftermarket set of feet to use with tube amps. I've done tests with my Shaw amp (6SL7 tubes) on top of my amp and noticed a BIG difference when putting a piece of foam in between the amp and cab. Better clarity and impact. The hifi guys have known this for years. It's very common in high end audio to use aftermarket feet on ALL gear. While the differences are subtle, even solid state gear benefits.

To be honest, putting any amp on top of a bass speaker is not a great idea. If you've got great gear and can hear the difference, you can hear a difference even with a solid state head on or off of an amp. In a perfect world, I'd prefer to not put any gear on top of a bass speaker---but I know that this isn't realistic. The biggest threat to electronics are
1. heat
2. vibration

As drivers are able to move much bigger amounts of air than in the past, bass speakers cabs vibrate a LOT more. That's why we could never use a lot of older construction methods as far as cab construction. With the new "super" drivers---you have to be PERFECT in all stages of cab construction. One wire touching something in the cab can be super noticeable in comparison to cabs in the old days. If you put a new Kappalite 15 in an old Sunn or Fender cab--the buzzing would be as loud as the notes!

My cabs are the worst as far as vibration and I've been able to use the Sonic Farm on top of my cabs no problem if I use something to help absorb vibration. In any case---whichever solution we choose to use will be simple, elegant, and non-obtrusive.
 
#70
ric426 said:
Sorry if this is a little divergent to the purposes of this thread, but are the ICE modules available individually to end users? I've been trying to find a low power compact power amp to use with a tube preamp I have, but haven't had any luck finding anything. So far my only alternative is to buy one intended for guitar, buy a kit of unknown quality intended for home hifi use or buy a mini bass amp and only use the power section. A 250 ICE module would suit my needs and I have the electronics skills for a DIY project, but don't know how to obtain a module.
Click to expand...

Ebay is likely the only place. As a manufacturer I've been buying Ice modules but agreed that they would not show up on Ebay or the like. That 500 module looks nice. Just remember that the 125 or 250AX2(this is the one used in many of the small bass amps) are stereo amps that are bridged to get the maximum output into one channel. Be careful because these amps are less stable into 4 ohms without serious heat management. Which is why G&K uses two fans, and Tecamp went from passive cooling to fans.

The 1000 module is REALLY stable. Into 2.67 ohms it doesn't even get hot. It'll do 2 ohms--but I don't recommend it. That's what they're asking a 250AX2 to do---if you bridge it, each amp channel is seeing a 2 ohm load if you're going into 4 ohms.
 
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#71
rufus.K said:
@ric426
B&O dont usually sell direct to public, have to find one thru other channels. Low power modules are all over fleaBay, but not *usually larger ones.
However.....
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that many of those eBay deals are Chinese knockoffs with no tech support of any kind. On top of that, that module has no power supply and the user will have to provide one.

Plate amps using legitimate ICE modules are readily available from MiniDSP, and a few US dealers like Madisound sell them if you prefer not to deal with shipping from Hong Kong. Also, Hypex supports DIY'ers perfectly happily, in fact that is how they got started.
 
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#75
Nice Charlie! Those look sweet! I have a few of those interlocking foam mats, I may steal one away from my daughter to make a iso pad.

Quick question: So I'm using the 2di4 and ICE1000w amp (which lives in a 12x12x3" tall enclosure). I'm looking for a nice padded bag or hard case to transport these two pieces and all related cabling. This is a hard item to search for, and was wondering if any of you guys have a recomendation along those lines, that doesnt cost a fortune. I would love to buy an appropriately sized Pelican case, but dont want to drop 100+ bucks on anything for this purpose. Thanks
 
#77
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#79
J.Wolf said:
I agree that the 1000 destroys the 250 modules, and I think that as nice as the 700 sounds, tonally, it doesnt have the slam and impact of the 1000. I could care less about the next best thing (1200) as the 1000w amp is the first class D unit that I like as much (or better) than the CA amps.

The other nice thing about the 1000w is that (according to the guy who built mine) its incredible sturdy/overbuilt/stable, and can run at 2.7 ohms.
Click to expand...

I agree,
J.Wolf said:
I agree that the 1000 destroys the 250 modules, and I think that as nice as the 700 sounds, tonally, it doesnt have the slam and impact of the 1000. I could care less about the next best thing (1200) as the 1000w amp is the first class D unit that I like as much (or better) than the CA amps.

The other nice thing about the 1000w is that (according to the guy who built mine) its incredible sturdy/overbuilt/stable, and can run at 2.7 ohms.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there's nothing lacking with the 1000 - it's been around for a while with a great track record, so no real reason to switch - it's kind of like buying a car towards the end of the design cycle when all of the kinks have been worked out. The 700 isn't lacking, it's just that the extra 500 watts of the 1000 adds headroom which is a beautiful thing.

I built the first power amp that Mike has now has when we were initially evaluating the module - it does run impressively cool when bolted to an aluminum case - before I sent it to him, I did some torture testing feeding it 80 Hz sine waves while running full tilt and the case only got warm to the touch. Definitely provides some peace of mind. It can also power additional hanger modules, so there is some reserve capacity in there. It does great into 2.7 ohms - if you really slam it into clipping with a slap/pop or something, you can get it to go into protect for a moment, but that's not something that's likely to happen with normal use. I've run it into 2.7 ohm loads with the clip light coming on periodically on transients with no issues.
 

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