sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

[ctufankjian]

Changing your sound throughout the night
---can be on purpose---
I change the eq, at my bass, often during a show.
Not a lot, but, different songs call for different feels.

Admittedly, I did not read through this thread prior to posting like I generally try to, and am very much responding to the OP which resonated with me.

I'm glad somebody made the observation that sound guys do often ignore options other than their own equipment. I can't tell you how many times, over the years, sound guys have insisted on not using my D.I. options, and when I think about it, for the last couple of years, I've had both a terrific D.I on my amp and VT Bass deluxe that would have provided a signal better than a non bass-specific house Beringer, or Radial box. I will say that i typically let the sound guy stick to his gear regarding this matter, because he's the one familiar with his own stuff, and probably feels that it makes his job more streamlined.

It can be a really difficult pill to swallow since I know that we all spend so much time trying to get the best set-up that is comfortable, but like Chef I enjoy varying eq settings and volumes appropriate to different songs over the course of a performance. I think that when somebody makes me use a piece of gear that I'm not familiar with I'm less confident that my stage sound will react predictably when I make changes even as simple as pick-up blend.

This thread has now given me the confidence to stand-up for my rights!

 

[rolandm]

Admittedly, I did not read through this thread prior to posting like I generally try to, and am very much responding to the OP which resonated with me.

I'm glad somebody made the observation that sound guys do often ignore options other than their own equipment. I can't tell you how many times, over the years, sound guys have insisted on not using my D.I. options, and when I think about it, for the last couple of years, I've had both a terrific D.I on my amp and VT Bass deluxe that would have provided a signal better than a the likes of a non bass-specific house Beringer, or Radial box. I will say that i typically let the sound guy stick to his gear regarding this matter, because he's the one familiar with his own stuff, and probably feels that it makes his job more streamlined.

It can be a really difficult pill to swallow since I know that we all spend so much time trying to get the best set-up that is comfortable, but like Chef I enjoy varying eq settings and volumes appropriate to different songs over the course of a performance. I think that when somebody makes me use a piece of gear that I'm not familiar with I'm less confident that my stage sound will react predictably when I make changes even as simple as pick-up blend.

Those are all very good points. And I have several different patches for different things the band plays. Some overdrives. Some synths. Some warm stuff. Some Envelope filters. I make sure the soundman hears all of them so he has a general idea of how things are going to react out front.

It all comes down to communication, I guess. The more you do, and the more open you are to it, the better off you are.

 

[ctufankjian]

Those are all very good points. And I have several different patches for different things the band plays. Some overdrives. Some synths. Some warm stuff. Some Envelope filters. I make sure the soundman hears all of them so he has a general idea of how things are going to react out front.

It all comes down to communication, I guess. The more you do, and the more open you are to it, the better off you are.

Right on. As a bass player during a soundcheck, I think that window of communication is definitely narrower than other parts of the band, so it would seem that you've really got to be as direct as possible... most of the time I feel rushed up there. Even more so than the other guys. I've always struggled with this ability because it's so critical that stuff is right.

 

[brenner182]

I've been hailed in here twice today, and this thread has been a problem since it started.

It's fine for all of you to have differing opinions and experiences.
It's not ok to have snotty attitudes about it.

If I get hailed into this one again, it'll be infractions all around, working my way backwards thru this whole thing. If you feel you've made a suspect post earlier in this thread, now would be a great time to go back and clean that out.

You guys woke Chef up at 6:09 in the morning. Shame on you.

 

[BurningSkies]

I use my rig's DI about 95% of the time.

I always pleasantly 'suggest' using it as a time/effort saver: "Hey, I've got a great DI on my rig, if you've got the XLR I'll get it ready for you, don't worry about digging up a DI"

...Which I usually add "you're going to love it, its tube-driven with great transformers" which is just slightly techy enough that they trust what I'm saying and we don't have problems.

 

[ctufankjian]

You guys woke Chef up at 6:09 in the morning. Shame on you.

I didn't know it was that kind of a party. Having now read through this thread, I feel a bit guilty for participating. Definitely have had sound guys insist on not using my D.I. though. I guess...let me know if I've said anything inappropriate. Definitely no harm intended!

 

[jaywa]

I use my rig's DI about 95% of the time.

I always pleasantly 'suggest' using it as a time/effort saver: "Hey, I've got a great DI on my rig, if you've got the XLR I'll get it ready for you, don't worry about digging up a DI"

Good approach. I go even a step further and provide my own heavy gauge XLR cable (which I of course immediately reclaim after the gig).

I also make sure he knows my onboard DI has a ground lift cause that can be a big deal in some venues.

 

[Warpeg]

In reading through this entire thread and thinking back on my experiences, it seems like the solution really boils down to one thing: TEAMWORK. If musicians and sound crew work together within a professional construct and balance open mindedness with efficiency; then the result will most likely be that of a successful gig that pleases both parties. More importantly, this practice will result in pleasing the audience, which is paying both parties to create an entertaining experience for them.

 

[brenner182]

I didn't know it was that kind of a party. Having now read through this thread, I feel a bit guilty for participating. Definitely have had sound guys insist on not using my D.I. though. I guess...let me know if I've said anything inappropriate. Definitely no harm intended!

You know what you did. :scowl:

But to contruibute to this thread other than bashing both soundmen and cocky bass players aside

I personally like if they run out of my DI from my preamp (Fender tbp-1) and i send it post eq.
Not to make there job anymore confusing than it is. Mine has a line control so my master volume has no effect on the signal to them. And i get my tube sound. Or something.

Only thing a sound guy ever says to me is turn my tone knob up on my jazz, and to turn my master down.

Whatever. I just diont care enough to argue about it. Im too busy grinding on fat chicks in the crowd.

 

[ctufankjian]

You know what you did. :scowl:

But to contruibute to this thread other than bashing both soundmen and cocky bass players aside

I personally like if they run out of my DI from my preamp (Fender tbp-1) and i send it post eq.
Not to make there job anymore confusing than it is. Mine has a line control so my master volume has no effect on the signal to them. And i get my tube sound. Or something.

Only thing a sound guy ever says to me is turn my tone knob up on my jazz, and to turn my master down.

Whatever. I just diont care enough to argue about it. Im too busy grinding on fat chicks in the crowd.

I DID NOT KNOW WHAT I DID!

p.s. hows your sound from down in the crowd?

 

[BurningSkies]

Good approach. I go even a step further and provide my own heavy gauge XLR cable (which I of course immediately reclaim after the gig).

I also make sure he knows my onboard DI has a ground lift cause that can be a big deal in some venues.

I don't do that purely because it's a 50/50 if I get my XLR back...and that depending on the stage and the run, I may need a longer/shorter cord than I may be willing to bring.

If I need to go into more detail about my DI I can do it to convince, but really most guys are pretty happy to have less workload and happily just drape the XLR across my amp for me to plug in. Usually in my initial comments I talk it up a little bit..."studio quality, you're going to love it..." which is true, so I'm not lying.

Although, there are shows where its just easier to go with whatever. We did a theater gig on Saturday that was scheduled poorly (no change over times factored in, very short sets). Luckily, the band on after us was cool with sharing their bass rig and their kit. I'm not going to complain about anything on a gig like that. I'm there to get up and running and grit my teeth through whatever it sounds like for our set. Grumpy sound crew with big attitude? Check. Crappy DI? Fine. Underpowered 2x10 onstage? Fine. House sound wants it nearly off so there's no volume leakage? Sure. My job is to get people moving, pretend that I'm hearing myself like its the hammer of the gods and not let the 300 people or whatever in the door know that its a clusterf. on stage.

 

[agedhorse]

Sometimes, the bass player (or it could be anyone else in the band) insists on something that they really think sounds great without listening to it in the context of the whole band and the overall mix. If they heard another band doing the same thing out front, they would criticize. When this happens, the sound guy may try to help things out but in the end if the player doesn't care to work with the mix rather than against it (even if the band does care), sometimes it's the least of the evils to bury him in the mix and move on.

This is where being a **** just doesn't pay off, while you think you have all this control, in the end you don't really. The sound guy (again, I am assuming a real sound guy) is paid to do a job and do it well. He is not paid to take abuse, just like a band member is not paid to take abuse. Speaking of abuse, taking a sound guy out or whatever, probably not a great idea at most gigs, especially union gigs where after one swing will earn you either a painful or legal lesson you won't ever forget. There's talking tough and then there's really tough.

 

[brenner182]

I DID NOT KNOW WHAT I DID!

p.s. hows your sound from down in the crowd?

It sounds fine to me. I can always hear myself fine. My band also tends to run a louder stage volume though. So To me it all tends to sound pretty balanced.

But thats just like, my opinion man.

 

[BurningSkies]

Sometimes, the bass player (or it could be anyone else in the band) insists on something that they really think sounds great without listening to it in the context of the whole band and the overall mix. If they heard another band doing the same thing out front, they would criticize. When this happens, the sound guy may try to help things out but in the end if the player doesn't care to work with the mix rather than against it (even if the band does care), sometimes it's the least of the evils to bury him in the mix and move on.

This is where being a **** just doesn't pay off, while you think you have all this control, in the end you don't really. The sound guy (again, I am assuming a real sound guy) is paid to do a job and do it well. He is not paid to take abuse, just like a band member is not paid to take abuse. Speaking of abuse, taking a sound guy out or whatever, probably not a great idea at most gigs, especially union gigs where after one swing will earn you either a painful or legal lesson you won't ever forget. There's talking tough and then there's really tough.

It never pays to be an @*$ on a gig. Ever. Even when the sound on stage or in the room sucks, I ALWAYS shake the tech staffs' hands and thank them for 'making us sound great' and for a 'really fun night' even if its not. Sometimes the gig is about how to work with what you've got.

 

[Jim C]

IMO
If you are the opener on a multi band stage with limited time between acts and a very short soundcheck be gald you are playing the gig at all and accept hsi DI and the situation for what it is.
If you are the headliner, or there is time for a propper sound check and set up, then it's all about communication; many times sound guys work with uneducated players with suspect gear and many times they just want the show to go on without a hitch.
It's your job to be able to ask nicely to try your rig as it has proven to offer great sound without ground noise.

Remember this: No matter what signal you give the guy, he can ultimately make it sound good or bad depending on the FoH console settings. Being a considerate and respectful pro is the best play. Your are playing in his house and he probably started at 4:00PM and won't get home until after 3:00AM and is making no money; being considerate = getting his best performance.

OTOH if your band really needs to sound good, bring a soundman that understands what sound your band is after.

 

[McFarlin]

Agree with above...I always introduce myself and show respect. We're working together.

Had a guy insist on using his Radial JDI, saying "this is better" after I asked to use the DI from my Demeter VTBP-201s. Letting him know they use the same transformer didn't change his mind. He then proceeded to bash every piece of our guitarist's gear. Having a bad night, I guess.

Those guys deal with awful "I'm in a band!" attitudes on a regular basis. I like to let them do whatever makes them comfortable (within reason -- but my bass, DI and cab all sound great to me...so...). I think it's helpful to not become too dependent on one element/piece of equipment. Especially considering the number of times studio engineers insist on recording bass direct.

 

[remainthesame]

God dog, I didn't mean to start a war here. I just wanted to let off some steam about a couple of the local sound guys. Sorry Chef, hopefully the guys have calmed down.

 

[BurningSkies]

Agree with above...I always introduce myself and show respect. We're working together.

Had a guy insist on using his Radial JDI, saying "this is better" after I asked to use the DI from my Demeter VTBP-201s. Letting him know they use the same transformer didn't change his mind. He then proceeded to bash every piece of our guitarist's gear. Having a bad night, I guess.

Those guys deal with awful "I'm in a band!" attitudes on a regular basis. I like to let them do whatever makes them comfortable (within reason -- but my bass, DI and cab all sound great to me...so...). I think it's helpful to not become too dependent on one element/piece of equipment. Especially considering the number of times studio engineers insist on recording bass direct.

I don't get a lot of grousing or pushback very often. And it doesn't hurt to be able to read the situation. We did one gig recently at a theater we've started to play fairly often and the soundman for the night was just miserable from minute one. Sometimes its best to remember that someone else's drama isn't always related to us or the situation. And it can bite the soundman too. In this situation, the theater owner loves us, and was near the board when the soundman was loudly and bitterly complaining about our use of melodica in the set (stupid crap like "I hate this instrument, I can't believe bands use that piece of junk..." Etc.). Our "people" who were near the board heard, fans heard and the owner heard. There were repercussions and not for us.

The same night I was getting a bunch of junk in my amp...even though I'd played there multiple times earlier that week and it was clean. The soundman had only given me an quad box that also had a fan, a smoke machine and the strip for the other band on the bill. I mentioned that the outlet wasn't 'clean' and he acted like I was being difficult for pointing it out.

 

[Chef]

I've just never, ever met a sound guy where introducing myself, saying please and thanks, showing them the DI on my amp, and politely asking to try that first hasn't worked.

A smile and a handshake have always worked for me.

 

[theinada]

Just wanted to through my experience in the mix here even though it's quite a bit different from what the OP originally mentioned. I play bass in a 10-piece afrobeat band in Minneapolis - most of the shows we play are at venues that have their own sound and their own house engineer.

In my experience with this group, there just isn't enough time to worry about FOH bass tone since most of the shows we play are 3 or 4 band bills, and getting 10 guys on the stage including a horn section and percussionist in a 15 minute set change is difficult enough. Several of the guys around here will mic up my cab (I use an Ampeg VT-22) and several others will just take DI. Some will take both. However, I trust that they know their room and gear well enough to do the band justice, and it's worked out so far! As long as I can hear my cab, and as long as my bandmates hear what they need from me, I put my trust in the FOH guy for the rest.

I always thank the sound guy for their work after every show, and it makes things that much smoother when you return to that venue.