sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

[BurningSkies]

Now that's just moronic.

I agree. And I'm not changing our planned material because the soundman is worried about a vocal mic behind the kit.

In my time I have seen a lot of moronic things on both sides of the mixing desk. As have you, I'd imagine.

Yep. This guy was pulling out his soundman ego comments in great number...I was playing a provided rig (GK 210, Ampeg SVTIII SS head) which is generally much smaller than anything I would consider. I didn't have it pushed in the least (from 10 feet out, I could only barely make out my own playing), and then he came up and told me it would be much better if he could bring the stage volume down. There was no stage volume. The Deluxe next to me was cranked, but that wasn't a problem. They provided no bass in the monitor after asking a few times, etc.

I played by listening to the front end bounce off the back wall and repeatedly reminding myself not to dig in to try to hear myself.

 

[JimmyM]

In my time I have seen a lot of moronic things on both sides of the mixing desk. As have you, I'd imagine.

Oh sure. I've even done a couple of them. And I learned a lot about making my bass sound good in a mix by listening to some soundmen. But I never learned a thing from a sound-dictator except how to make a band hate you within seconds.

 

[JimmyM]

Great post. BTW if you are in a band that is constantly having bad soundmen just remember talent rises to its own level.

Oh spare us your extreme soundman arrogance today, please!

 

[pbass2]

I realize this isn't feasible for everyone--but what worked for me, since I'm playing through a backline amp 95% of the time, I just got to where I knew I was getting a sound I was happy with just with my bass and pedals. In my case that means almost always having a pedal on that is doing something "amp-ish"--like a VT, etc. For rock gigs at least that's my MO. Even with NO amp I'm confident I'm sending a nice sound appropriate for the music through the DI to the FOH. Then, if they're mic'ing the bass amp, I just turn off my "amp" pedal.

 

[Treaks]

I just this had this conversation with a sound man this past Friday. I also use a GK 1001rbII. The soundman left a box out for me, but I plugged the cable into the amp. I told him so, and he said. "Ok, that's cool." We had some time, so we A/B'd the box and the D.I. on the the GK. The sound from the box seemed a little cleaner sounding, and had a hair more beef on the bottom end, so we went with that. My bass stays in tune pretty well, so I just tune right before the set. The board is muted until just before we play.

 

[lfmn16]

Oh spare us your extreme soundman arrogance today, please!

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits - Mark Twain.

 

[Mark Reccord]

Oh sure. I've even done a couple of them. And I learned a lot about making my bass sound good in a mix by listening to some soundmen. But I never learned a thing from a sound-dictator except how to make a band hate you within seconds.

Indeed. Of course, I've occasionally seen the same sort of inflexibility and attitude from musicians which doesn't exactly endear them to the crew. Both situations suck. No need of it in any case. I'm glad that most of my gigs on either side of the console haven't included that kind of crap.

Oh spare us your extreme soundman arrogance today, please!

It would be a lot easier to mix sound if you musicians just did what you were told.

 

[lfmn16]

Indeed. Of course, I've occasionally seen the same sort of inflexibility and attitude from musicians which doesn't exactly endear them to the crew. Both situations suck. No need of it in any case. I'm glad that most of my gigs on either side of the console haven't included that kind of crap.

I think that most of the problems arise from a fundamental disagreement on the role of the sound man. I can only speak to the shows I play which are where we are the only band and there is always plenty of time for a sound check. I don't expect the sound man to take two hours to get my perfect recording studio sound, but I do expect him to take a few minutes to get the sound I want. I play with a custom repro of a 50's Fender P through a genz Benz head and cabinet. I don't use effects and play with a pretty mainstream sound. I don't think I'm being unreasonable to think that I should be able to sound like I want.

 

[B-string]

Wow 12 pages! I should have stayed up last night.

Courtesy goes a long way on both sides of the board. Sometimes out in the "small world" I have found out the "sound guy" is the person that they use as a DJ. Some of these guys can accept and are willing to learn some basics of live sound. Others are simply plastic "stars" with no real interest in anything that is not prepackaged and processed before hand.

 

[Mark Reccord]

I think that most of the problems arise from a fundamental disagreement on the role of the sound man. I can only speak to the shows I play which are where we are the only band and there is always plenty of time for a sound check. I don't expect the sound man to take two hours to get my perfect recording studio sound, but I do expect him to take a few minutes to get the sound I want. I play with a custom repro of a 50's Fender P through a genz Benz head and cabinet. I don't use effects and play with a pretty mainstream sound. I don't think I'm being unreasonable to think that I should be able to sound like I want.

This isn't the least bit unreasonable. It might be a different situation on a festival gig with 9 other bands, shared backline and only enough time for a line check before you start. Still, there's typically enough time to pop a DI off the end of an XLR and to stick it into the XLR on the back of a bass amp or what have you. As a soundman, I'm all about facilitating a good performance from the band and not about dictating minute stuff like whether I use a mic or a DI or an XLR out or all 3.

I will say with a great deal of certainty that on board DIs have definitely gotten a lot better and a lot more common since I started doing sound in the early 90s. Most of the on board ones in those days were too noisy to use for some reason. They're way better now.

 

[Mushroo]

Some cats practice fretless. Some cats practice 5-string. Some cats practice slapping. Some cats practice sight reading. Some cats practice using effects. Some cats practice cutting through at arena volume and others practice blending with quiet acoustic acts. And some cats practice sounding good through a DI. Nobody is born with these skills, but anyone can acquire them. It's all about adding skills to your "tool box" as a player. You choose the skills that you want to learn, and nobody can force you to learn a skill that doesn't interest you. Just keep in mind that if you choose not to learn a skill, then you are disqualifying yourself from situations where that skill is necessary. It took me about 10 hours hard work with an engineer I trust to learn how to sound good through a clean solid state DI. Now I have that skill for life and I am prepared for that situation should it arise. Learning this new skill did not push the knowledge out of my brain how to rock an Ampeg or use a pedalboard. It's just another tool in the toolbox to make me a more versatile player.

 

[Chef]

Can you boil that 10 hours of work down into a paragraph or two on how to sound good through a DI?

Some cats practice fretless. Some cats practice 5-string. Some cats practice slapping. Some cats practice sight reading. Some cats practice using effects. Some cats practice cutting through at arena volume and others practice blending with quiet acoustic acts. And some cats practice sounding good through a DI. Nobody is born with these skills, but anyone can acquire them. It's all about adding skills to your "tool box" as a player. You choose the skills that you want to learn, and nobody can force you to learn a skill that doesn't interest you. Just keep in mind that if you choose not to learn a skill, then you are disqualifying yourself from situations where that skill is necessary. It took me about 10 hours hard work with an engineer I trust to learn how to sound good through a clean solid state DI. Now I have that skill for life and I am prepared for that situation should it arise. Learning this new skill did not push the knowledge out of my brain how to rock an Ampeg or use a pedalboard. It's just another tool in the toolbox to make me a more versatile player.

 

[pbass2]

Can you boil that 10 hours of work down into a paragraph or two on how to sound good through a DI?

I just read Mushroo's post as you should be prepared for the unexpected, i.e. you should be able to get a good sound more than one way. You don't travel without spare cables or strings. Why back yourself into a corner and only be able to get a sound you can be happy with one way? Doesn't mean you have to carry a semi full of gear--just have a plan B for getting a sound that works for you to send FOH should your preferred method meet some "challenges".

 

[BurningSkies]

Eh. If you have good technique, if practice in a way that you can hear yourself clearly and can handle your tone in a band setting, you don't need practice your 'DI technique'.

If you're DI'ing effects, you need to make sure they'll sound good without your amp as a tone element.

 

[georgestrings]

Can you boil that 10 hours of work down into a paragraph or two on how to sound good through a DI?

More importantly, can he tell us how a player can translate varying tonal needs thru to the FOH that way???

I get that it's *easy* for a soundman to get a useable sound out of a straight up DI - BUT, they're then locking the bassist into one sound all night long(whether that works for him or not)... Now, they don't do this with the guitarists, and a *good* soundman won't do it with the bassist, either... This is the issue that the "DI only" crowd always dodge - and EXACTLY where their argument falls flat...


- georegstrings

 

[spector_boogie]

wait wait wait! hold up! stop everything!
you can play bass and NOT have to go through BS? how does one do this? lol

You bring and run your own sound. Problem solved.

And yes, this is unfortunately a stupid issue but happens. The DI on the GK happens to sound great too. Pretty sure it's even Post/Pre DI capable, IIRC.

 

[JimmyM]

More importantly, can he tell us how a player can translate varying tonal needs thru to the FOH that way???

I get that it's *easy* for a soundman to get a useable sound out of a straight up DI - BUT, they're then locking the bassist into one sound all night long(whether that works for him or not)... Now, they don't do this with the guitarists, and a *good* soundman won't do it with the bassist, either... This is the issue that the "DI only" crowd always dodge - and EXACTLY where their argument falls flat...

Whammo. Truth spoken here.

 

[Jim C]

I've just never, ever met a sound guy where introducing myself, saying please and thanks, showing them the DI on my amp, and politely asking to try that first hasn't worked.

A smile and a handshake have always worked for me.

This
I'm surprised by all the venom from supposedly accomplished players. The sound guy doesn't tell you how to play bass or suggest better bass lines. How could anyone,walking in off the street, know the technical nuances and weaknesses of the room and his system? I've worked the same 300 seat room for years and learned a few good ideas from players and guest soundmen.
Think about this; would you use the exact same EQ for an 8x10, a 3-way Fearful, and a 1x10 cabinet; probably not. No reason to think that your amp's stage EQ is going to be helpful for FoH. Other than tubes in the front end; I'm not so sure that there are any heads that have a DI that is really that much better than a Jensen trasnformer or a Countryman.

If you are passionate about your amp settings you should ask nicely to give it a try. It may or may not work better. Lastly, for those of you that walk out front during soundcheck in a live room, be aware that the room will sound entirely different with a few hundred people (which equates into 500 or 600 lbs of sound damping material). The good guy is tuning for a room full of people so you sound best from the downbeat. Treat him well and ask if he needs anything and chances are your band will sound better.

 

[Chef]

Well...if you're playing a passive bass with one pickup maybe you're stuck.
I mostly play active J's, onboard eq and pickup choice leave me with plenty of room to vary my tone thru a passive DI.
However, as I've said before, I've never met a soundguy who wouldn't work with me when given The Nice Guy Treatment.

More importantly, can he tell us how a player can translate varying tonal needs thru to the FOH that way???

I get that it's *easy* for a soundman to get a useable sound out of a straight up DI - BUT, they're then locking the bassist into one sound all night long(whether that works for him or not)... Now, they don't do this with the guitarists, and a *good* soundman won't do it with the bassist, either... This is the issue that the "DI only" crowd always dodge - and EXACTLY where their argument falls flat...


- georegstrings

 

[Jim C]

More importantly, can he tell us how a player can translate varying tonal needs thru to the FOH that way???

I get that it's *easy* for a soundman to get a useable sound out of a straight up DI - BUT, they're then locking the bassist into one sound all night long(whether that works for him or not)... Now, they don't do this with the guitarists, and a *good* soundman won't do it with the bassist, either... This is the issue that the "DI only" crowd always dodge - and EXACTLY where their argument falls flat...

True but changes to EQ that sound good to you and your stage amp don't necessarliy scale to a huge 3-way system and, huge EQ changes to FoH can result in feedback or damage to a system without dedicated chanel EQ's.
Think about the top 3 CD's in your car right now. Chances are the bass EQ is similar from song to song for each CD.