sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

[ObeyGiant]

If the sound guy or company is decent they will have a decent DI option for you like a Radial or Countryman DI. A lot of sound guys don't like using the amps DI for many reasons such as noise, it's running post EQ or because the output is effected by the master volume control and your stage volume will effect the mix.

Keep in mind that just because they are taking the DI out of your amp doesn't mean that the bass tone coming out of the front of house speakers will sound anything like what you hear through your amp on stage. That signal is being routed through a board with a different preamp and gain structure as well as a completely different EQ then your head. It's then fed to PA speakers that are not tuned anything like your cabinet. So you are usually beating your head against the wall for nothing to get "your tone".

The best argument you have is making sure that the sound guy isn't giving you some piece of crap DI that is not equipped with a transformer. The transformer will protect your gear from any voltage that may came back to your gear and damage it. It's rare these days but you never know when a club or church has had some shoddy electrical work done a volunteer or a drunk brother in law who meant well in an effort to save money.

When I was in your situation I would offer my Sansamp BDDI to the sound guy as an option to a crappy DI box. I always carried a (still have them) a Radial J48 active DI box and a Radial JDI passive DI just in case they were adamant about me going through a DI.

Ya I never have this problem with the sansamp, it may not be the best but it seems to be popular and well known amongst sound guys

 

[JimmyM]

This
I'm surprised by all the venom from supposedly accomplished players. The sound guy doesn't tell you how to play bass or suggest better bass lines. How could anyone,walking in off the street, know the technical nuances and weaknesses of the room and his system? I've worked the same 300 seat room for years and learned a few good ideas from players and guest soundmen.

Not really relevant to the topic, since we're just talking about the soundmen who aren't there to learn or teach, but merely to get the job done the easiest way they can...but it's never any other instrument except bass that they do this with.

Think about this; would you use the exact same EQ for an 8x10, a 3-way Fearful, and a 1x10 cabinet; probably not. No reason to think that your amp's stage EQ is going to be helpful for FoH. Other than tubes in the front end; I'm not so sure that there are any heads that have a DI that is really that much better than a Jensen trasnformer or a Countryman.

That's irrelevant IMHO. It's what the bass player wants and a certain amount of respect should be given the choice, not dismissed out of hand because it might take a soundman 10 seconds longer to get a sound on it.

If you are passionate about your amp settings you should ask nicely to give it a try. It may or may not work better. Lastly, for those of you that walk out front during soundcheck in a live room, be aware that the room will sound entirely different with a few hundred people (which equates into 500 or 600 lbs of sound damping material). The good guy is tuning for a room full of people so you sound best from the downbeat. Treat him well and ask if he needs anything and chances are your band will sound better.

Being nice usually works. Sometimes it doesn't.

 

[4Mal]

Man. I expect a lot of this from lead singers...

 

[JimmyM]

I do sing lead on about 1/4 of our songs in my band

 

[Chef]

Depending what band I'm with on any given night, I front 1/3 to 1/2 the material.

So: I resemble that remark, and I'm highly unsalted.

 

[pbass2]

More importantly, can he tell us how a player can translate varying tonal needs thru to the FOH that way???

Are some of you guys actually changing settings on your bass amp during a set? Maybe I'm old-fashioned(or maybe have done too much soundman work myself, but I would just never do that once I get the onstage sound dialed in, unless there's a problem like it becomes apparent I'm too loud onstage, lows need to roll off, etc. Of course I'll make song-dependent tonal changes on the bass and on my pedals, but on the amp--never.
The only exception I can recall is one tune on my last tour where I had to end with a bunch of feedback and THEN I would do it at the (mic'd)amp, but the FOH guy knew exactly when in the set it was going to happen. Then the settings went right back to where they were. (I also had a pedal set to give me a similar effect if the backline amp wasn't up to the feedback task)

 

[BurningSkies]

Are some of you guys actually changing settings on your bass amp during a set? Maybe I'm old-fashioned(or maybe have done too much soundman work myself, but I would just never do that once I get the onstage sound dialed in, unless there's a problem like it becomes apparent I'm too loud onstage, lows need to roll off, etc. Of course I'll make song-dependent tonal changes on the bass and on my pedals, but on the amp--never.
The only exception I can recall is one tune on my last tour where I had to end with a bunch of feedback and THEN I would do it at the amp, but the FOH guy knew exactly when in the set it was going to happen. Then the settings went right back to where they were. (I also had a pedal set to give me a similar effect if the backline amp wasn't up to the feedback task)

I don't change the tone controls live (unless its to make small tweaks for stage and room), but I do ride the Sensitivity control regularly on my Monique...It takes me from clean and bell like tube to compressed fat hot tube tone. I'm also unafraid to use the tone controls on my bass...Bring up the treble a touch for the songs that need it, roll it back for a deeper tone on other tracks.

 

[B-string]

True but changes to EQ that sound good to you and your stage amp don't necessarliy scale to a huge 3-way system and, huge EQ changes to FoH can result in feedback or damage to a system without dedicated chanel EQ's.
Think about the top 3 CD's in your car right now. Chances are the bass EQ is similar from song to song for each CD.

This why I tell my band members we play live music not CD's. If people want to hear CD accurate they don't hire a live band. A loud stereo is cheaper.

 

[Jim C]

Not really relevant to the topic, since we're just talking about the soundmen who aren't there to learn or teach, but merely to get the job done the easiest way they can...but it's never any other instrument except bass that they do this with.

We will have to agree to disagree: it's not about a conspiracy theory against bass players; I do agree that it is about bad sound guys being uneducated or lazy.

Other than being a good communicator or bringing your own FoH engineer, I don't recall reading much in the way of constructive ideas on how to achieve positive results in this thread.

 

[JimmyM]

We will have to agree to disagree: it's not about a conspiracy theory against bass players; I do agree that it is about bad sound guys being uneducated or lazy.

Other than being a good communicator or bringing your own FoH engineer, I don't recall reading much in the way of constructive ideas on how to achieve positive results in this thread.

That's easy...go along with our ideas for how we want to be presented and realize that not all of us have our heads up our butts for wanting something out of the ordinary.

 

[1n3]

I think (hope) we're talking about a small minority of sound techs, perhaps typified by this post -

Part of the reason that these soundmen do this could be that some amps equipped with DI's that have a pre/post EQ switch... and if you've got a bass player up there feeding his EQ to the PA, and changing his settings as the night goes on, could very well have the soundman pulling his hair out trying to figure out why his mix keeps changing.

Reminds me of the "soundman" who told me musicians shouldn't play dynamically... that was his job.

I don't think anyone could have predicted the direction this thread would take...

 

[JimmyM]

Are some of you guys actually changing settings on your bass amp during a set? Maybe I'm old-fashioned(or maybe have done too much soundman work myself, but I would just never do that once I get the onstage sound dialed in, unless there's a problem like it becomes apparent I'm too loud onstage, lows need to roll off, etc. Of course I'll make song-dependent tonal changes on the bass and on my pedals, but on the amp--never.
The only exception I can recall is one tune on my last tour where I had to end with a bunch of feedback and THEN I would do it at the (mic'd)amp, but the FOH guy knew exactly when in the set it was going to happen. Then the settings went right back to where they were. (I also had a pedal set to give me a similar effect if the backline amp wasn't up to the feedback task)

I change tones all the time. When I mic'ed, I didn't make them too drastic, but I did make changes. Some songs sound better with a lot of bass response, some sound better with more treble, etc.

Now that I DI, I just use basses that allow me to make tonal changes. Got 2 with EMG's and a BQC pre, got one with a Stellartone Tonestyler, soon to be two or three. I am careful not to screw the pooch so most of my tonal changes on the bass are adding or cutting treble, but I'm completely unapologetic about it, and if asked not to do it, I inform the soundman that I do this according to the songs we're playing, it needs to be done, and just leave it and don't try to keep compensating.

 

[gumbynotpokey]

Great question OP. In short, we've all run into this nonsense in one form or another. It's the same type of thinking that leads to all recording folks expecting you to play, and even supplying, a Fender.



(if you know what i mean)

But alas, they're human. And they get in a rut.

PS: Great statement back there about "See "all guitarists are mic'd". OUCH.

 

[Mushroo]

Can you boil that 10 hours of work down into a paragraph or two on how to sound good through a DI?

Sure, no problem. My friend has a lot of studio and live experience as an engineer, and here are the things we worked on.

1st you want to make sure your instrument is in good shape in terms of setup, intonation, strings, etc. because a DI will magnify any flaws.

2nd engineers will often have opinions about which bass, amp, eq, etc. and it's good to listen to those opinions if you trust the engineer (my guy loves my pedulla so that's what I use when I work with him) some people use studio techniques such as flatwound strings, or foam under the strings.

3rd is learning how to control your tone with your hands and the instrument (as opposed to outboard gear). the most important is using right and left hand positioning and technique to get the tone you want. where you pluck in the space between the bridge and neck is basically your eq. and obviously having a deep understanding of what the different pickup selectors and tone controls do. my friend likes passive basses with all controls "full up" but that is not a universal.

4th is technique, engineers love it when you have clean technique with full control over dynamics, muting, etc. a great way to practice this is with headphones or studio monitors. muting in particular is something I emphasize with my students, stamping out any sympathetic vibrations between the strings. and obviously you don't want to have any fret buzz, strings hitting the pickups, etc. (unless done in a controled way as part of your style/sound) practicing with a di (even if you never plan to do so on a gig/recording) is really a great way to put your playing under the microscope and clean up little flaws in your technique.

hope that helps!

 

[B-string]

I have not even done a 30 minute set without a tone change of some kind. Be it on the amp head, tone or pickup blend on the bass or position/technique. Its how you keep live music fresh instead of stale pre-recorded.

 

[pbass2]

I change tones all the time. When I mic'ed, I didn't make them too drastic, but I did make changes. Some songs sound better with a lot of bass response, some sound better with more treble, etc.

Well if you're only cutting lows (from the bassiest tone you'd use in the set) then I wouldn't foresee too much trouble(expect FOH will start to try and EQ them back in!), but boosting lows in any dramatic way unexpectedly for the FOH could likely send the mix into a tizzy until they sort it out front. Then, you change it again and----well, as I say, I've been on both sides of the board so the thought of that makes my head hurt a little
But, if they know it's coming, then its a different story, or as you say, you're just tweaking your highs mostly. I have done sound where bass players suddenly sent a HUGE increase in lows either from the amp, from an active bass, etc., and it can really wreak havoc!

 

[modulusman]

Not really relevant to the topic, since we're just talking about the soundmen who aren't there to learn or teach, but merely to get the job done the easiest way they can...but it's never any other instrument except bass that they do this with.



Meanwhile over on the Gear Page forum a guitar player is whining about how it is always the guitar players who get no love from the soundman. Poor soundmen don't get any respect.

 

[lfmn16]

This
I'm surprised by all the venom from supposedly accomplished players. The sound guy doesn't tell you how to play bass or suggest better bass lines. How could anyone,walking in off the street, know the technical nuances and weaknesses of the room and his system?

I don't think I've heard anyone say that they want to specify the EQ settings that the sound man uses on his board. What I am hearing (and saying) is that I want to tell the sound man what I want to sound like and have a reasonable expectation that he will expend at least some minimal effort to try and achieve that sound.

On a related note, if you do get saddled with a bad sound man, you should talk to the club manager. A club we were playing had a new sound man that ruined our night with feedback, poor balance, worthless monitors and bad sound. We told the manager that we loved playing his club but would not be playing there again with that sound man. He told us that we could bring our own sound man next time. If no one tells the manager that there is a problem, the manager can't fix it.

 

[pbass2]

I don't change the tone controls live (unless its to make small tweaks for stage and room), but I do ride the Sensitivity control regularly on my Monique...It takes me from clean and bell like tube to compressed fat hot tube tone. I'm also unafraid to use the tone controls on my bass...Bring up the treble a touch for the songs that need it, roll it back for a deeper tone on other tracks.

Sure of course, the Monique is pre-DI I assume(I hear those sound amazing BTW). I'm all for tonal changes as much as the next guy--I do it all the time on the bass, on pedals, just nothing that's going to cause problems with the FOH mix (like suddenly boosting a bunch of booming lows as I keep harping about

 

[Tomkat8]

I spent many years trying to get my amp sound through the pa. I finally lucked out when i hooked up my radial jdi between the amp and speaker ( speaker switch engaged of course.) this forces the sound man to mix your sound! Not his perception of what you should sound like