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sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

Well while I personally like to cut frequencies above 5k, I won't presume to tell anyone else how they should amplify their bass. If they want to go directly from the bass to a solid state DI, I'm fine with it and you should be, too. It just bugs me when a soundman thinks everyone should.
 
btw, why the heck would anybody DI raw bass into a PA system? thats just plain wrong. any system that DIs bass needs a preamp and speaker emulation to get rid of harsh pickup sounds. that means sansamps or MXRs.

I'd have to strongly disagree with this statement. I've been playing "just plain wrong" 25 years and have always gotten compliments on my tone even though I've never once used a speaker emulator. If you love your sansamp, that's great, but to argue any one specific piece of gear is absolutely universally necessary (apart from a bass, obviously) shows ignorance. Nobody has ever told me "that would have been a great show, too bad you ruined it with your harsh pickup sounds." :rollno:
 
Flame suit on, check.

Obviously very few of the folks in this thread have ever actually done sound... When I get a bass guy I know I can trust, fine. Everybody else has to prove it. Setup time in most cases is way too short and it i pretty darned rare that the bass player is the draw.

Man up, be a team guy and help make your band sound good. Don't waste the FOH guy's time when he's also busy pleasing the prima donna vocalist who just happens to the one folks paid to see... And for all you guys who say but you mic the guitar... Guitars are easy slap a 57 on a speak at the correct angle and done. Bass you have to carry a specific mic for... A decent DI, I can put a 4 band semi parametric, a gate and comp on you at the board...

Until you've walked that mile in the sound guys shoes, you're just whining...
 
The only reason for doing that, other than ignorance, is to justify the money they spent on a D.I. box.

No, there are rational, real-world, based on science and experience reasons why a good soundman might choose a particular piece of gear. They don't wake up in the [DEL]morning[/DEL] afternoon and make up random crap just to piss off the bass player. That you don't understand the reason doesn't mean there is no reason. Isn't this the forum where we argue about tone woods and capacitors and which bass is best for metal? We as bassists pay obsessive attention to every detail of our signal chain... but heaven forbid a professional sound engineer make a recommendation in his field of expertise!
 
I have always received very favorable feedback from soundmen on the DI out of my Genz Benz Shuttlemax, but received mixed reviews on the DI out of my Streamliner 600(which I ultimately got rid of). Now I don't know if they were the same, or not, but I work with the same soundmen regularly and value their input. Recently, one of my regular weekly gigs has required us to switch to in ears. The DI out on my amp sounded killer, but last Friday I decided to try their DI. It was very thin and 'tinny' sounding. That lasted 1 set before I switched back to the DI on my amp. But, I can see scenarios where using a house DI would be preferable for a Soundman. For example, if a guy insists on giving a post EQ signal. I know some guys are very specific on EQ settings for their 'sound', but often, that is thru a 4x10 cab...or any bass cab really. The way that EQ on an amp effects front of house sound thru a full range PA can be VERY DIFFERENT. This is just one example. When I used to do big tours and play large venues, pretty much all of the touring sound guys used and preferred high quality DI's. Also...to the OP, plug into your tuner, and go out of your tuner into the DI. I believe that is the right signal path to solve that problem...but it's been a while because my amp now has a 'tuner out' that works independently. My 2 cents.
 
Bet you carry specific mics for the drums. And I'll bet some bass players bring their own mics, too. I did. Still got stick for it occasionally. The good soundmen loved it and welcomed the opportunity to use it. Anyway, I've run sound before. It's a big job but it ain't brain surgery.
 
No, there are rational, real-world, based on science and experience reasons why a good soundman might choose a particular piece of gear. They don't wake up in the [DEL]morning[/DEL] afternoon and make up random crap just to piss off the bass player. That you don't understand the reason doesn't mean there is no reason. Isn't this the forum where we argue about tone woods and capacitors and which bass is best for metal? We as bassists pay obsessive attention to every detail of our signal chain... but heaven forbid a professional sound engineer make a recommendation in his field of expertise!

That is a ridiculous statement. How about the sound guy give us his bass to use also? Since he knows best. Same tone every band :scowl:
 
Flame suit on, check....the guitar... Guitars are easy slap a 57 on a speak at the correct angle and done. Bass you have to carry a specific mic for... A decent DI, I can put a 4 band semi parametric, a gate and comp on you at the board...
...

There's the key.

If a sould guy wants to bypass my rather expensive German amp to run me through a rubbish DI he'll cop stick from me.
 
There's no way the FOH gets my signal through their DI.
I give them the post-EQ signal through the DI out of my amp.
Since my cab is as neutral as possible I do not have to EQ-it to death to get a reasonable sound(FOH gets a pretty clean signal from me). Since I also have an amp that comes with a floorpedal to activate the graphic EQ (to activate my solo sound) I WANT them to use my post-EQ DI signal so I can make use of my solo sound.
Also, I do not want any mics in front of my cab, NOT NEEDED here. I do not own a cab that colors the sound(what you put in comes out 1:1), period ;)
 
Here's a diagram that, I hope, might help this fascinating discussion. It hints at the different places a signal may be taken for FOH.
DIthread.jpg


Yes, I know some people put Tone and Level changing FX in the other order and many people have multiple signal chains and most of our amps are tone-changing and so on, but I believe the diagram covers a majority of us...

Acknowledging that there is no way that what Listener B hears can be an exact match of what Listener A hears, I would suggest that it is the soundman's job to reproduce what Listener A (the bass player) hears as accurately as possible. Yes, there may be legitimate exceptions to this.

Therefore, if the FoH only gets the signal at A, then total divergence between Listener A and Listener B is almost assured.

Signal at B may offer the best compromise. How many of you deliver a combination of A and D to the audience? (I'd guess it's a lot!)

Thoughts??
 
Does anybody else think this is crazy? Or am I the one being an idiot here? :confused:

To the OP:

Look what you started--I hope you're satisfied with yourself young man ;) Wow, 8 pages and numerous cuts and contusions later…and all that in only a few hours on a Sunday afternoon. Obviously it’s not football season.

For all of us who are NOT touring pros with decades of big-time gig experience and privy to the decadent luxuries afforded thereto, what follows is a long-time gigging amateur’s perspective, with some learnin’ accumulated during many a night spent behind-the-board thrown-in. Most of the experience which contributes to this perspective was gained in small to medium venues with the corresponding wide variation of room and system quality and sophistication (not to mention engineering talent). Pros can skip this whole thing and luxuriate with some high-end product endorsements for awhile :)

1. Performers are NOT on stage for the benefit of the sound tech: the performers are there for the audience.

2. The sound tech (engineer) is NOT there for the performers, unless the band IS the employer.

3. A lot of small venues provide the engineering staff. Sound techs get the gig for a variety of reasons, maybe a recommendation from another engineer, maybe the nephew of the owner who has no job and no life but somehow knew how to re-program the VCR after the big storm knocked-out the power back in ’86. But for an engineer to get invited back for more underpaid abuse requires a somewhat higher standard of performance which may entail (in no particular order): shows up; knows where to find all the gear and takes care of it; knows how to drive the whole rig; makes the house sound good; puts everything in the proper place after the show; makes certain that none of the house gear grows legs and wanders off into the night never to be seen again; works cheap; and doesn’t turn large quantities of profitable liquids into urine (speaking of which, occasionally at really small gigs the "sound guy" is also the owner so don't piss him off). Nearly all engineers are gear heads, which can be common ground--especially when we performers take a little time to familiarize ourselves with what happens to the signal after it leaves our rig.

4. At some level, the audience is the boss—if they go home with unfulfilled expectations, it’s a bad thing for everyone. The engineer has a much better chance of serving the employer and the audience by providing a comfortable performing environment for the musicians and dialing-up a mix that accurately presents the performance to the audience. Facilitating him/her in that pursuit can only help in attaining the mutual Prime Directive.

What to do, what to do?

A. Communicate our wants, needs, and capabilities to the engineer. With specific regard to the OP, if the engineer insists on using different gear and/or techniques from what we prefer, and if a few sentences of polite, knowledgeable, and confident persuasion cannot win him/her over to our side, then we have to decide whether to let it go and focus on OUR game, or get into a tussle. Usually, a tussle ends up being counterproductive and besides, the engineer JUST MIGHT know something we don’t. Whatever happens, the show itself belongs to US performers first and foremost and it’s our responsibility to, ahem, bring the rock (or the polka or the drill-index-meter Balkan folk extravaganza), regardless of what the engineer does.

B. Provide a good stage plot and input list. With any luck, the engineer might actually look at it in advance. No really--it COULD happen.

C. Do some homework and find out as much as possible about the venue so we know what to expect and can plan accordingly.

D. Bring ALL the gear we require. Know how to use it. Make sure it works right. Whatever we think about tone and appearance when we buy gear, rock-solid reliability and real-world functionality should be at the top of our list of requisites. Still, things do go kaput, so we have a backup plan for that crazy night when the magic smoke leaks out.

E. Know what we want to hear in our monitor.

F. Show up early; never later than on-time. With all our stuff.

G. Be a grown-up (or at least act like one) and don't be a di... I mean, don't be that guy

H. Be emotionally and intellectually prepared for things to go wrong because things WILL go wrong. When that happens, try to think of it as an adventure rather than a disaster. Unless it really IS a disaster like that storm back in ’86.

I. Create great art.

J. Have fun.

Oh, and don’t forget to tip your over-worked, under-paid, under-appreciated small-venue sound guy: he might be me (and if I happen to be the bass player and YOU are the sound guy, please please please don’t make my upright sound like a bass guitar. In return I might explain what a VCR is and how to program it.)
 
Take a random browse around the posts on Talkbass. Now, what percentage of bass players have even a clue about sound, acoustics and electronics? A lot do, but there are enough who know nothing or are seriously misguided to make it worth the sound guy's while not to trust them on technical matters.
 
That is a ridiculous statement. How about the sound guy give us his bass to use also? Since he knows best. Same tone every band :scowl:

That's how lots of studios work. Can't rely on musicians to have functioning equipment. Local studio sends them down the road to me to borrow my nice basses, because they turn up with a barely working POS.
 
Here's a diagram that, I hope, might help this fascinating discussion. It hints at the different places a signal may be taken for FOH.
DIthread.jpg


Yes, I know some people put Tone and Level changing FX in the other order and many people have multiple signal chains and most of our amps are tone-changing and so on, but I believe the diagram covers a majority of us...

Acknowledging that there is no way that what Listener B hears can be an exact match of what Listener A hears, I would suggest that it is the soundman's job to reproduce what Listener A (the bass player) hears as accurately as possible. Yes, there may be legitimate exceptions to this.

Therefore, if the FoH only gets the signal at A, then total divergence between Listener A and Listener B is almost assured.

Signal at B may offer the best compromise. How many of you deliver a combination of A and D to the audience? (I'd guess it's a lot!)

Thoughts??

I have a problem with "D" when you have a multiple-way speaker system, and if the mic they use has a "voice" of it's own.....:hmm:
With a good mic it would work with my cab though since it acts as a pointsource ;)
But then again, I give them my post-EQ signal. Never had a soundguy complain about my signal, I play 5 seconds and the soundcheck for bass is ready and when I listen off-stage I can hear MY sound through the PA, what more do I want :cool:
 
Flame suit on, check.

Obviously very few of the folks in this thread have ever actually done sound... When I get a bass guy I know I can trust, fine. Everybody else has to prove it. Setup time in most cases is way too short and it i pretty darned rare that the bass player is the draw.

Man up, be a team guy and help make your band sound good. Don't waste the FOH guy's time when he's also busy pleasing the prima donna vocalist who just happens to the one folks paid to see... And for all you guys who say but you mic the guitar... Guitars are easy slap a 57 on a speak at the correct angle and done. Bass you have to carry a specific mic for... A decent DI, I can put a 4 band semi parametric, a gate and comp on you at the board...

Until you've walked that mile in the sound guys shoes, you're just whining...

I've sat on either side of the console plenty of times - that's why I know BS when I see it...


- georgestrings
 
Part of the reason that these soundmen do this could be that some amps equipped with DI's that have a pre/post EQ switch... and if you've got a bass player up there feeding his EQ to the PA, and changing his settings as the night goes on, could very well have the soundman pulling his hair out trying to figure out why his mix keeps changing.

I always carry my JDI in my gigbag, so if I'm using an exrternal DI, that's what it's going to be. Tuning isn't an issue, because my tuner mutes my sound when I kick it on.
 
If the soundman is using a mixer wich is -10dbv and he gets a sound from the GK wich could be +4dbu it could be garbled. If he uses his own DI he knows what to expect.

You could have come in half an hour before the show and ask the man. Now he has to be shure in the 15 minutes he has to setup your band that what he does works...
 
The only reason soundmen don't like them is because it could give the bass player the slightest little bit of control over his/her sound.

This sound like my last show. It was an acoustic show and I had my ABG and only brought an Basswitch DI (this is an amazing DI). He wanted to use a crappy behringer DI box and I calmly said that I rather use mine because I would have more control over the sound and the impedance was better matched, etc...
Result: He used my DI and gave me the most horrible mix I ever heard. Boosted the bass EQ in FOH so much, that it was sounding out of tune (this tends to happen with ABG)... I find soundguys to be egocentrical control freaks who none in the audience will blame if the sound is terrible. They always blame you...
 
I've been hailed in here twice today, and this thread has been a problem since it started.

It's fine for all of you to have differing opinions and experiences.
It's not ok to have snotty attitudes about it.

If I get hailed into this one again, it'll be infractions all around, working my way backwards thru this whole thing. If you feel you've made a suspect post earlier in this thread, now would be a great time to go back and clean that out.