thats just it though. like i said in the OP. in my mind, it would be easier to use my DI than the box
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sound guy ignoring direct out on amp
- Thread starter remainthesame
- Start date
thats just it though. like i said in the OP. in my mind, it would be easier to use my DI than the box
Classic! Next gig I'm totally going to compliment the drummer, "hey, nice drunk it, man!"
Stick_Player
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- Nov 13, 2009
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A lot of sound-dudes do not like post-EQ DI's.
Yes, the GK is switchable. But they don't want your sound.
Yes, the GK is switchable. But they don't want your sound.
I worked for 15 years doing live sound and the owner's position was made clear before the first piece of gear rolled out to the stage: It takes 30 seconds to tell if the musician's preference is going to work, if you want to argue with them for 5 minutes find a new job. If what they wanted doesn't work it will save another 10 minutes of bad attitude if you try in the first place.
Regretfully, over 4 decades of playing out have gone a long way towards convincing me that most soundmen are deaf, belligerent imbeciles.
Devil's advocate:
A good reason most soundmen don't want to use your DI is that they likely don't know it, or how it works. For example, in my soundman hat, when I get a DI signal from a player I want just the bass signal - no eq or compression, etc. I'll do that in front of the house. I am sure I can get you a good tone using my gear with minor tweaks from where I am currently set on the board/gear, and quickly. And for most players, it will generally speaking sound more or less like your on stage sound. If someone requests that I use their box / amp DI I have to determine what the box does or does not do to your signal and then usually I need to do extra work to settle it. So the question I ask is:
"In the limited minutes I have to spend dialing in your band, is this where you want to spend my time?"
If it is very important to the player, or necessary as a function of representation, OK - fine, no problem. But trust me on this, the bass tone is very often the least important component a solid FOH mix, to everyone except you. Sad / true.
A good reason most soundmen don't want to use your DI is that they likely don't know it, or how it works. For example, in my soundman hat, when I get a DI signal from a player I want just the bass signal - no eq or compression, etc. I'll do that in front of the house. I am sure I can get you a good tone using my gear with minor tweaks from where I am currently set on the board/gear, and quickly. And for most players, it will generally speaking sound more or less like your on stage sound. If someone requests that I use their box / amp DI I have to determine what the box does or does not do to your signal and then usually I need to do extra work to settle it. So the question I ask is:
"In the limited minutes I have to spend dialing in your band, is this where you want to spend my time?"
If it is very important to the player, or necessary as a function of representation, OK - fine, no problem. But trust me on this, the bass tone is very often the least important component a solid FOH mix, to everyone except you. Sad / true.
Harder? Yes. Impossible? Hell, you can hear bands all over the world mix themselves, and if they have any degree of competence at all, it sounds just fine.
What job? Removing screws? Attaching rivets?
Oh sure they can. What about if the soundman is giving you a crap mix that sounds nothing like what you want to hear? What if the bass is gone from the mix, or even worse, way too loud? What if he decides that bass players only need to be heard from 100-150hz and turns off everything else? What if you like a big fat round Jamerson tone and they give you Marcus Miller tone? Seriously now!You can throw a hissy fit or you can roll with it. I just relax, play my ass off, and trust that the guy knows his stuff. "My sound" is in my hands and the details of my performance. Nobody can take that away from me.
And conversely, I have had soundmen completely ruin the experience of shows by horrible mixes, feedback, giving you the mix they think you should have instead of the one you should have, missing cues at critical times, etc. I have had audiences at shows yell at us to turn the instruments down when they were barely on to begin with because the soundman made us sound like a metal band or a hip hop band and you couldn't hear vocals. I have had soundmen completely ruin the mix and vibe of the show by secretly hooking me up to the DI in my amp instead of using the awesome mic I brought. I'm up there onstage totally oblivious, making tonal changes here and there, adjusting the gain when I want more grind, and the soundman was grossly incompetent and egotistical to begin with so he was clueless as what to do. He would let whole verses go before he'd turn on the lead vocal mic, he'd forget to turn on monitors, he would forget to change scenes in his digital board when different acts came up...just a complete mess. And then he thinks he's going to straighten everything out by throwing a mic cable in my XLR line while I'm at dinner, and he completely screwed himself by not discussing it with me first.And yes, I do think it is totally amateur when bands blame the soundguy for their own sucky performance. If the quality of your act is contingent on having a certain EQ setting or whatever, that's a sad reflection on your musicianship and ability as an entertainer. Not accusing anyone here on these forums of course, thinking more about some prima donnas I've shared the stage with through the years. Conversely I've seen top pros deal with broken strings, split drum heads, faulty mics, dead battery, bad monitor mix, power outages, crappy weather, incompetent sound guy, and many other technical difficulties with dignity and professionalism, and every single fan left the venue entertained, raving what a great show it was.
So let's not pretend it's all about prima donna musician egos. It damn sure isn't and I resent the implication that anyone who wants something out of the ordinary for their instrument doesn't know what they're doing.
Oh, and before you tell me again that we should have had our own soundman, we try to get our own soundman at a lot of these gigs and can't always get the budget or the venue insists we use in-house people.
Devil's advocate:
A good reason most soundmen don't want to use your DI is that they likely don't know it, or how it works.
No offense but if a soundguy can't work a GK DI then they shouldn't be working a desk. Maybe there are some amp DIs that are tougher to operate but a GK is not one of them. If the sound guy has never seen a Gallien Krueger then it's either his first night or he's not actually a sound guy.
Yes, it often is but that doesn't make it OK. Suppose the engineer said to you "Yeah, no, don't play your Fodera. I'm gonna have you use this P bass." Not that there's anything wrong with a P bass.
Or, "Nah, your rack system isn't going to work for me. Here, use this Dual Showman."
He might as well tell you to play with your fingers instead of a pick. It's silly.
If any soundman ever says that to us, that will be the last time they work with our band if I can at all help it. People who think like that should just get the hell out of the business. I hate that "nobody cares" nonsense. Don't even show up if you think nobody cares about the bass.If it is very important to the player, or necessary as a function of representation, OK - fine, no problem. But trust me on this, the bass tone is very often the least important component a solid FOH mix, to everyone except you. Sad / true.
AMEN!!!!
(and if you dont know what your doing go back to the rehearsal room and dont come out till you do
)- Jan 27, 2010
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Maybe a sound guy should chime in...
Once upon a time bass amps didn't come with DI's. When they started showing up on amps it was sort of a afterthought. Often didn't have a ground lift, or a pre-post option, and some of them sounded pretty bad. This leads to 30 years later there still being a stigma among some sound engineers that amp DI's are bad, which is mostly no longer true.
The second half of the problem is that yes, some sound guys are lazy. The bass channel is already set to a generic "good" bass sound, and they don't want to have to change anything. This is why you sometimes get that 5 second sound check.
If I'm working with a house sound person and they try to use a whirlwind DI or something I just ask if we can use the one on the amp. I tell them it's a tube pre with a transformer coupled DI, and can we just try it? Not once has it been a problem, you just have to ask nicely.
Now if the guy's an arrogant jerk, there's no point in arguing. Nothing you say will mean anything to him, and your best bet is to not cause a problem and be nice, because if you make the guy mad he'll just turn you down in the mix.
Once upon a time bass amps didn't come with DI's. When they started showing up on amps it was sort of a afterthought. Often didn't have a ground lift, or a pre-post option, and some of them sounded pretty bad. This leads to 30 years later there still being a stigma among some sound engineers that amp DI's are bad, which is mostly no longer true.
The second half of the problem is that yes, some sound guys are lazy. The bass channel is already set to a generic "good" bass sound, and they don't want to have to change anything. This is why you sometimes get that 5 second sound check.
If I'm working with a house sound person and they try to use a whirlwind DI or something I just ask if we can use the one on the amp. I tell them it's a tube pre with a transformer coupled DI, and can we just try it? Not once has it been a problem, you just have to ask nicely.
Now if the guy's an arrogant jerk, there's no point in arguing. Nothing you say will mean anything to him, and your best bet is to not cause a problem and be nice, because if you make the guy mad he'll just turn you down in the mix.
- Oct 18, 2012
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They are just lazy and know their own box. Tell them they have two choices: 1) Use the DI from your amp head. 2) Mike your speaker cab.
Not really a fair assumption to make. There are several reasons why sound men prefer to use a DI box rather than running out of the head. First, it gives them a better mix because if the bass player turns up the volume on the head, the mix in the board will not change. Secondly, some heads produce noise when the direct out is used. I had two 1001RB heads and both had an annoying hissing sound when the direct out was used.
If you are worried about your tone being heard, suggest that in addition to using a DI that the sound guy puts a mic on your cab.
Feeding the troll.
What I was getting at was: the soundguy might not know what that specific DI will deliver to the board.
The first part of that is, "What are the options?"
The second part is, "And how has the user set these up?"
"Is the DI able to send signal pre or post eq?"
If there is a choice, "What is being sent?"
If post eq, "What is the eq content?"
"Does the DI provide compression?"
If so, "Is the signal compressed or uncompressed?"
If compressed, "How much compression is on there?"
"Is there a ground lift available?"
If so, "Is it currently engaged?"
"Is there a volume control?"
If so, "Where is it set?"
It's not about be able to work the DI, it's about whether or not it's worth the time to suss it all out. Look, the basic functions that apply to DIs are fairly simple, but the ways they can be applied and combined can cause delays. And is that where you want me to spend my time?
Years ago I actually had a sound guy who insisted on taking the DI out from my SWR Redhead and then running it into *his* crappy DI box - yes, you heard me right, a DI into a DI - and then to the board. Don't ask me how this made sense, but I guess it somehow reassured him. 
IME, it doesn't take that much to show a sound guy that the DI coming off your head is effective and helpful. Just talk to them slowly and calmly, praise their flexibility in allowing you to try out the "experiment" of using your own DI, and in the end everyone will be happy.
IME, it doesn't take that much to show a sound guy that the DI coming off your head is effective and helpful. Just talk to them slowly and calmly, praise their flexibility in allowing you to try out the "experiment" of using your own DI, and in the end everyone will be happy.
Tech difficulties with gear are another story. But I don't know of any bass amps made since the early 90's that have a noise problem with using the amp XLR. The only reason soundmen don't like them is because it could give the bass player the slightest little bit of control over his/her sound.
I always introduce myself and am always friendly to the sound guy, even if he is a grumpy $#@!. And only once (since I have been using an amp with a good DI) has the sound man wanted to use his own. His reason was "I paid a lot of money for this and it is really good.
I explained that my amp has distortion built in that I use for a few songs and a tuner mute so I can tune between songs without making noise. I reached a compromise with him and ran into his DI via the effects send which is post eq, dist, tuner mute etc. Pre master vol.
He was happy I was happy. Friendliness goes a long way
+1, I know a guy whose band has an unsual instrumentation and is tricky to mix. What he does is show up at the venue a week before the gig to buy a few beers and support some other band. He makes friends with the owner, bartenders, and staff. Then he gives the sound guy $20 and a copy of his CD and says "hey man, when you get a chance between now and our gig, give this a listen so you're familiar with the kind of mix we're going for." Not only does he get a consistently great mix, but he gets asked back for a lot of repeat gigs due to his professionalism and courtesy.
They are just lazy and know their own box. Tell them they have two choices: 1) Use the DI from your amp head. 2) Mike your speaker cab.
Ditto.
That's why I carry a EV RE-20.
