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sound guy ignoring direct out on amp
- Thread starter remainthesame
- Start date
I'm not trolling you. I'm being serious. Hypothetically if you as a sound guy didn't know out how to use a GK inbuilt DI and couldn't figure out how to use one in a quick and timely manner we would probably never hire you again. We pay around $80 for a 45 minute set and if you can't nut out basic stuff fast we'll find someone who can. And this is basic stuff.
That said, if something isn't working you come and you talk to me about it and we'll nut it out. You don't try and pull a work around without consulting me. I'm the customer.
i my amp failed i would be more than happy to use the house di. until then i want to use my amp to its fullest potential
I say this in all these threads, because it's true.
The best sound engineers I work with, on the biggest gigs, always gladly take my amp DI, post EQ. Every once in a while they might ask if it's clean, and I tell them yes, as of the last gig X days ago it was clean. If it's not, I'll use your DI.
The ones who insist on not using your amp DI are always at low-rent gigs, guys who are not that good, and make every band, rock, funk, soul, or flamenco, sound exactly the same. They don't know a lot, they know one way to mix a band, and that's it. That's what you're stuck with for the night.
To say it's the musician who's an amateur in this situation is not only insulting, in my experience it's almost always also patently false.
The best sound engineers I work with, on the biggest gigs, always gladly take my amp DI, post EQ. Every once in a while they might ask if it's clean, and I tell them yes, as of the last gig X days ago it was clean. If it's not, I'll use your DI.
The ones who insist on not using your amp DI are always at low-rent gigs, guys who are not that good, and make every band, rock, funk, soul, or flamenco, sound exactly the same. They don't know a lot, they know one way to mix a band, and that's it. That's what you're stuck with for the night.
To say it's the musician who's an amateur in this situation is not only insulting, in my experience it's almost always also patently false.
Well, ok but it's pretty rare to lose the preamp section. Hell, I've been gigging for 30 years and have never had an amp fail in any way on the gig. I did have my bass quit, once. DI box wouldn't have saved me there.
Okay, so I use a gk 1001rbII. Anybody familiar with the amp probably knows and loves the direct out on it. A few of the sound guys in my area seem to either ignore it or hate it or something. They always unplug me from my amp (the input is right next to the direct out, you cant miss it) and they hook me up to their di box. Now there's a couple things that bother me about this, only one of them actually effects me, but the rest is just as annoying.
First issue, it renders my tuner mute totally useless. You can hear me try to tune through the pa while my singer talks to the crowd. Which to me is unprofessional, I know I hate seeing other bands do that. I know I can unplug and go to the tuner but if he used the direct out on my amp, I wouldn't have to do that.
My second issue is, If I was a sound guy I would rather use the direct out that comes on most bass amps these days. You simply plug in an XLR, dial in a tone on the mixing board and you're done. They usually only sound check me for about 7 seconds before telling me to stop playing anyway. They might as well save the additional couple seconds it takes to unplug me and hook me up to the box.
Whenever we set up and I see the sound guy comming my way I tell them about the direct out. They usually say one of the following:
"i just want to make sure it has a ground lift"--- theres a ground lift on the one on my amp.
"nah my box is better" --- as he pulls out a crappy $25 di
"this way is easier for me" --- which i cannot prove to be wrong, but in my mind it would be easier to use the one on the amp.
Does anybody else think this is crazy? Or am I the one being an idiot here?
Is this all different guys, or the same one all of the time? In either case, tell them to listen before making a judgement. If one with less than stellar specs sounds better than one with great specs, which would be the better choice?
I had this happen recently where the sound guy wanted to run my bass into his DI, and THEN into my Zoom B9.1ut. I explained to him that A) I run a great many effects patches and bass synths that are required for the correct reproduction of the song, and B) going direct from my bass into the board will pretty much eliminate all of that, seeing as I am ampless and use in-ear monitors that the crowd will not be able to hear.
It took him a bit, but he finally understood. Bass players using effects and synths are a foreign concept to a lot of soundmen, much less stereo effects.
The fact is, many soundmen locally will spend a good half hour on a drum kit, a good 4-5 minutes on the guitar and about the same on the vocals. But the bass is all about, "is the level adequate?" to them. Nothing more. And that's when we need to step up, step out front and say, "hey, I need more X, Y or Z out here." Work with them respectfully, but make sure they understand what comes out of FOH is a reflection on you, not them.
Fortunately, we generally run with a sound guy who works very hard to replicate what I want out of FOH and into my monitors, including a pretty sweet stereo mix. I never knew what spoiled felt like until this guy ran sound for us. And I've had a lot of compliments on my playing and sound with this guy. And I don't cease to let him know that, either, because it's as much a reflection on him as it is on me.
So while there are plenty of crap soundmen out there, there are several who really care about the craft of sonic reproduction to the point of being highly skilled.
It took him a bit, but he finally understood. Bass players using effects and synths are a foreign concept to a lot of soundmen, much less stereo effects.
The fact is, many soundmen locally will spend a good half hour on a drum kit, a good 4-5 minutes on the guitar and about the same on the vocals. But the bass is all about, "is the level adequate?" to them. Nothing more. And that's when we need to step up, step out front and say, "hey, I need more X, Y or Z out here." Work with them respectfully, but make sure they understand what comes out of FOH is a reflection on you, not them.
Fortunately, we generally run with a sound guy who works very hard to replicate what I want out of FOH and into my monitors, including a pretty sweet stereo mix. I never knew what spoiled felt like until this guy ran sound for us. And I've had a lot of compliments on my playing and sound with this guy. And I don't cease to let him know that, either, because it's as much a reflection on him as it is on me.
So while there are plenty of crap soundmen out there, there are several who really care about the craft of sonic reproduction to the point of being highly skilled.
- Jan 27, 2010
- 4,141
- 471
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Genz Benz Amplification
That's kind of a weak excuse IMO. People say this as though amps just fail left and right at every gig. In 20 years of gigging I've had two amps fail during a gig, and both were supplied back line we were required to use. I've owned about a dozen heads, and none have ever failed on the gig. I know this isn't everyone's experience, but if someone comes in with a 1001RB or something else of reasonable quality I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that it'll make it through the next 45 minutes.
On top of that, when an amp fails it's usually when you turn it on.
That's why I carry a EV RE-20.
I do this as well, actually I carry a AKG D112 in my "emergency bag", It's probably not quite as nice as the RE-20?? But it's still a robust mic for my bass cabs.
I also run a SansAmp BDDI, and so far I've not had any sound guys complain about using it either.
One of those nights. Here we go.
I could say that if you can't play nice with soundmen, you should get out of the business. I could say that I hate that "you care too much about yourself" nonsense. I never said I don't care about bass. I tried to say that maybe there are other things that more important then getting your way in a greater view of the team sport that is band performance.
You wouldn't work with me again, if you could help it. Now, can you help it, Jimmy? Are you the band leader? Are you a VIP in your band? Someone who gets listened too? Someone whose front of the house sound is critical to the show? If so, good for you. If not, would your band leader / management back you up on wanting to not use me again? If the sound in the FOH was good but you were complaining that I didn't do it how you wanted it, would he/she back you up? Let's say I took the time to work it out for you. I spent a little extra time dealing with the bass tone. But now the singer was unhappy with the monitor mixes, or there were feedback issues, or there was a bag of bees guitar tone out front, or is I lost five minutes fooling with your stuff and didn't get to something else, would your bandleader say, "Yes, that was an efficient way to spend the soundman's time, Jimmy! Thank you?"
I am a bass player. I take pride in my tone. I have great equipment. Zon -> GK700RB. Yes, it has a great DI. If I play somewhere and the soundguy says, "I'd rather use my DI." I will say, "Are you sure, the GK DI is nice." If he/she says, "I'd still rather use mine," I say, "OK, no problem." Professional is what I am. I know that a lackluster FOH bass tone isn't as bad as a million other things that can happen to a mix, so that is that.
On talkbass, bass is the focus. In most (not all) live band settings it is not. It all comes down do this, "If time is tight, how do you want to soundman to spend his time?"
And for the record, I was introducing my opinions as DEVIL'S ADVOCATE. No need to beat up on me.
In the same way many are saying that most sound guys don't know their asses from the elbows, I am sure many bands and musicians that sound guys encounter are the same.
That being said, most sound guys hook up to my amp's DI when they see it. I also now carry a simple Radial Pro DI too just in case.
That being said, most sound guys hook up to my amp's DI when they see it. I also now carry a simple Radial Pro DI too just in case.
To clarify my earlier comment, I said it's "amateur to complain." In other words, if I am playing some local bar with a 5-minute soundcheck, and the marginally-competent sound guy suggests using his whirlwind imp, I don't act all surprised and throw a temper tantrum, because it's a common situation I've dealt with before and I know it's in my best interest to make his job easy by giving a basic clean signal using his familiar gear. I never meant to imply that it's amateur for musicians to care about having good tone, simply that it is amateur to respond to a normal par-for-the-course situation as if it were a slap in the face. ("They served TARTAR SAUCE with my fried clams; can you believe the nerve?!? I'm never eating there again!") Apologies if I gave offense.
By the way, bassists are not the only ones that get this treatment. Ever have a vocalist who's preferred mic is not an SM58? 
They catch all sorts of crap at the venue!
They catch all sorts of crap at the venue!
I'd really love it if some local soundmen showed up on time and got their gear put onstage on time and got things mic'd on time and got the sound check set up on time. Professionalism in that regard often sets the good ones apart. The bass is where a lot of corners are cut.
I guess "timing" is what it is all about, though. And if you show up at a gig and have a plan in place for load-in that you can execute in half an hour, running lines and mics supplied to the provided stage plot, you should have plenty of time to say, "alright, I have 20 minutes for drums, 10 minutes for guitars and bass, 10 for vocals and keys and then run a song and address any overall issues. Does that work for everyone?" If everyone plays nice and works within a team atmosphere, within a whopping total of 70 minutes, a good, quality mix can be had and the FOH and MON sound can be pretty spot-on, prior to the band taking the stage.
Really? You called me a troll because I didn't agree with you. Interesting approach to playing devil's advocate.
In we ever hired a soundguy who just did his own thing and ignored what we asked of him it would be his last gig with us. As the band we earn when people come in the door leave via the merch desk. A poor FOH mix will cause those numbers to be limited and less money will be exchanged for cds and tshirts. If you give us a pox mix because you choose to be pigheaded or refuse to communicate then you won't be joining us next time.
If your idea of good time management is to bypass the band's sound and go straight to the most efficient sound you wouldn't get work with us. Pretty simple stuff.
This isn't aimed at 'you' incidently. 'You' is just used to serve as an example.
And whilst I am clarifying, if you are paying me I will do whatever you want. If the bandleader / manager is paying me, I will do whatever they want. If the club is playing me, I will do whatever is important to the club (which is generally speedy band changes and good overall sound).
