sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

[IPYF]

To be fair I'd be more concerned about Adele's bass player's opinion than her opinion. The dude's an out-and-out gun. Just look at those credits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Dixon

/offtopic.

 

[agreatheight]

Just answering questions I can answer cleanly at this point.

Do YOU nail the positioning on the first try with guitar? If so, what makes you think you can't do it on bass?

I almost never nail guitar with the first try. Lol. I almost never nail bass on the first try either. That is my point. If I am the only guy, mic'ing means placing in the best guess spot first (dust cover edge for guitars straight on, half way between the cone edge and the dust cover for bass straight on), running to FOH, listening, running back on stage, replacing / reangling, running back to FOH, etc. Extra time. Anytime a sound guy just places and calls it good I wonder...

So we'll let the guitarist and drummer swap out sets and amps and pedals, but the bass player has to use this Whirlwind Imp 2 that's been here for a decade instead of micing his killer rig or using his own XLR out of his own choosing. That's fair.

Life ain't fair, baby. Ahahaha. And like I said, it's all about what there is time to do and what is important to who is in charge.

 

[agreatheight]

Oh, well when you put it like that, I guess that makes it OK to screw over the bass and not anyone else

Not saying what should be. Just saying what often is.

 

[georgestrings]

wait wait wait! hold up! stop everything!
you can play bass and NOT have to go through BS? how does one do this? lol

For me, playing in one of the top drawing acts in my area for a few years did it... I've had "soundmen" try to give me a hard time at a couple of clubs - and they're not allowed to mix us anymore - they either don't work there anymore, or when we play there, those idiots are not working... We refused return bookings until that situation was resolved... We have also brought in our own soundman at times, or hired out sound and lights...


- georgestrings

 

[two fingers]

Sound guy and bass player here. Here's the simplest solution that I have found. Try the line out on the amp if the bass player prefers it. If I can't work with whatever muddy mess he may be sending me, I offer him two choices. Either negotiate with me on the tone or plug into my DI. And, no, I don't call his tone a "muddy mess" to start the conversation. I'm much more diplomatic than that.

However, that being said, if you insist on sending me a mess that I can't work with off your head, I will insist that we go DI. I TOO have a reputation to uphold. Often I am working for either the club or event (festival, private party, whatever) and NOT the band. Also, MY REP is on the line as well as yours. So, if you send me any kind of "good tone" (and, yes, that is debatable), I will work with you. It doesn't have to me my favorite tone, but something I can at least sit in a mix.

The biggest problem most bass players have (unless the music calls for it.... like reggae) is that they like a very boomy tone. They like to "feel" the bass as much as they hear it. I can't do a thing with that. I can't ADD mids and highs if they aren't there. (Oddly enough, I CAN add bass if your tone is too thin.) So my advice to many would be to get used to a tone that may be a tad bit brighter than you actually feel good about. It's much easier to add a little more bass and get it to sit in a mix than trying to clarify mud (which is simply impossible).

BUT, if I am being hired by you, and you are playing a club I probably won't ever go back to, then you can have whatever mud you like. And, of course, I'm not talking about ALL bass players. Many have great tone right out of the box (literally) and I just roll with it. There is a middle ground here. Most sound guys AND bass players avoid it though.

 

[JimmyM]

That's my whole point...the ONLY thing that should take any priority over anything else is the vocals, especially lead vocal. You always have to make sure the lead singer's mic is heard before anything. Everything else is equally important to a good mix, and bass is one of the very easiest instruments to mix and make sound good, so I'm not getting where this tremendous level of difficulty is coming in.

BTW, if it were me running sound, I'd do just the opposite for micing guitar and bass. Closest to the center gets the highs and upper mids louder, which you'll probably want more for bass than guitar, since many guitarists use way too much treble anyway However, it does sound good to use those positions, just sort of makes it hard to get enough high mids and treble on bass in a mix.

 

[georgestrings]

LOL! No, he's just big enough to either kick a soundguy's ass or give him a real good fight

Well, there's that, too... I did bitchslap one during a gig because he was riding the suck knob with a smirk on his face - it came off right quick when I smacked him, looked him in the eye, and told him I knew what he was doing, and that he better knock it off... Afterwards, I had a talk with the venue owner and informed him that his boy was screwing up in front of a full house - because he was pouting after not getting his way... We never let him mix us again - which was his loss, because we played the place once a month for a pretty good run...


- georgestrings

 

[JimmyM]

Sound guy and bass player here. Here's the simplest solution that I have found. Try the line out on the amp if the bass player prefers it. If I can't work with whatever muddy mess he may be sending me, I offer him two choices. Either negotiate with me on the tone or plug into my DI. And, no, I don't call his tone a "muddy mess" to start the conversation. I'm much more diplomatic than that.

However, that being said, if you insist on sending me a mess that I can't work with off your head, I will insist that we go DI. I TOO have a reputation to uphold. Often I am working for either the club or event (festival, private party, whatever) and NOT the band. Also, MY REP is on the line as well as yours. So, if you send me any kind of "good tone" (and, yes, that is debatable), I will work with you. It doesn't have to me my favorite tone, but something I can at least sit in a mix.

The biggest problem most bass players have (unless the music calls for it.... like reggae) is that they like a very boomy tone. They like to "feel" the bass as much as they hear it. I can't do a thing with that. I can't ADD mids and highs if they aren't there. (Oddly enough, I CAN add bass if your tone is too thin.) So my advice to many would be to get used to a tone that may be a tad bit brighter than you actually feel good about. It's much easier to add a little more bass and get it to sit in a mix than trying to clarify mud (which is simply impossible).

BUT, if I am being hired by you, and you are playing a club I probably won't ever go back to, then you can have whatever mud you like. And, of course, I'm not talking about ALL bass players. Many have great tone right out of the box (literally) and I just roll with it. There is a middle ground here. Most sound guys AND bass players avoid it though.

You sound reasonable. I don't think that's too much to ask for. However, there are some bands who want a muddy mess or something else out of the ordinary, so you also have to take that into account. I personally don't like a lot of treble most of the time, so I'll often roll some off before it hits the board.

I try not to make a muddy mess, though But some do try for that. And just like guys like Chris Squire and John Entwistle got messed with by soundmen who didn't like it even though that's the sound they wanted, sometimes you have to ask yourself as a soundman if you're trying to second guess a budding Entwistle.

 

[two fingers]

You sound reasonable. I don't think that's too much to ask for. However, there are some bands who want a muddy mess or something else out of the ordinary, so you also have to take that into account. I personally don't like a lot of treble most of the time, so I'll often roll some off before it hits the board.

I try not to make a muddy mess, though But some do try for that. And just like guys like Chris Squire and John Entwistle got messed with by soundmen who didn't like it even though that's the sound they wanted, sometimes you have to ask yourself as a soundman if you're trying to second guess a budding Entwistle.

Fair enough. And I listen to all kinds of music so I try to figure out where the band is coming from. Like I said, reggae (and some other kinds of music) thrive on a boomy bass tone. I can respect that. But if you are doing Journey and disco, I need a little something from you other than boom. It's all relative.

 

[Mushroo]

What a steaming pile of BS... it's "normal procedure" for hacks that call themselves "soundmen"...


- georgestrings

It's never happened to you? I've encountered it many times.

 

[B-string]

Two Fingers I ride both sides of the fence as well. The best thing I found was given me by my old boss. The musician wants to DI from his head let him and leave the spare DI next to his amp. If it doesn't work out it's there and ready. 30 seconds you'll know and you are ready with the fix.

I will admit more than once I had a punkish guitarist at outside shows tell me he has a 100 watt Marshall full stack and he doesn't want any PA. When the girlfriend/wife comes up to complain she can't hear the guitar well enough I point at him and say he didn't want the PA, talk to him.

 

[5StringThunder]

I hate that guitarists always get mic'ed and that there are many sound men who refuse to mic a bass cab. My reasoning behind mic'ing over DI is that most bassists (I realize there are exceptions to this) dial in their tone based on what comes out of the speakers in their cab, not what comes through a DI. I told this to a sound guy one day after he had gone through 3 DI boxes looking for one that worked and he looked me dead in the eye and said "but bassists dial in there tone, that's my job". He ended up doing a good job, but I was livid that he said that.

 

[David Jayne]

I try not to make a muddy mess, though But some do try for that.

I'll bet you don't. You're a pro, and you play a P. That's a fat, clear sound, in the right hands.
Ima gonna try and find me some Bowzer vids. Any reco's, James?

 

[JimmyM]

It's never happened to you? I've encountered it many times.

All I know is if I walk into a gig with a REDDI and the soundman says he wants me to use his Whirlwind DI instead because it's what he's used to, I'm going to laugh in his face and ignore him.

 

[georgestrings]

I say this in all these threads, because it's true.

The best sound engineers I work with, on the biggest gigs, always gladly take my amp DI, post EQ. Every once in a while they might ask if it's clean, and I tell them yes, as of the last gig X days ago it was clean. If it's not, I'll use your DI.

The ones who insist on not using your amp DI are always at low-rent gigs, guys who are not that good, and make every band, rock, funk, soul, or flamenco, sound exactly the same. They don't know a lot, they know one way to mix a band, and that's it. That's what you're stuck with for the night.

To say it's the musician who's an amateur in this situation is not only insulting, in my experience it's almost always also patently false.

Well said - and we always have a few "soundmen" who troll these threads with the same lame schtick... I have never had a *good* soundman give me a hard time about the way I do things - I need to mute to tune, play both 4s and 5ers, and need different sounds thru the course of a 3-4 hour gig, neither of which would happen thru a straight DI... I've done enough sucessful gigs to know that if what I'm sending won't work for someone, it's because THEY don't know what they're doing...


- georgestrings

 

[JimmyM]

I'll bet you don't. You're a pro, and you play a P. That's a fat, clear sound, in the right hands.
Ima gonna try and find me some Bowzer vids. Any reco's, James?

Oh, I've played a ton of stuff with Bowzer besides P's, bro. I've used a Jazz, a P Lyte, a Dano Longhorn, a neck-thru with a whammy bar and EMG's, a Realistic violin bass, a Jay Turser violin bass, even used a $150 Steinberger copy with DiMarzios in it on a few of his gigs But yeah, you can find some stuff with me playing if you search Bowzer's name or Rocky And The Rollers on Youtube. A lot of other artists as well, too.

 

[Mushroo]

All I know is if I walk into a gig with a REDDI and the soundman says he wants me to use his Whirlwind DI instead because it's what he's used to, I'm going to laugh in his face and ignore him.

Actually I was talking about head vs. DI, not DI vs. better DI. That being said, are you honestly telling me no sound man has ever suggested you use the house whirlwind or proco or countryman (whether you agreed to it or not)?

 

[agreatheight]

That's my whole point...the ONLY thing that should take any priority over anything else is the vocals, especially lead vocal. You always have to make sure the lead singer's mic is heard before anything. Everything else is equally important to a good mix, and bass is one of the very easiest instruments to mix and make sound good, so I'm not getting where this tremendous level of difficulty is coming in.

One more clarification and then I am out. I swear.

Bass is, in my opinion, the easiest instrument to get sounding good. Which is why in times of challenging situations I try to get bass worked out quickly.

It is unrealistic to think each instrument should get equal time.

Drums take longer: more mics, different sizes on each kit, drummers with Neil Peart kits with 8 toms, different drummer dynamics (hulk smash versus kitty soft paws), this kid has electronic pads along with the acoustic stuff, this kid has glockenspiel for his drum solo, etc. I gotta place mics, set levels, set EQ, setting gates, fix adjust compressors, some of this only if there is even time. It can take a while to sort all that out. And then there are the potential issues, like awful tuning, ringing drums, rumbling drums, non-ported kicks, etc.

Bass, let's see, I grab an uneffected DI line through my box, tweak the compression on the board, if necessary (set around 8:1), get the incoming volume to match what you usually have so the threshold kicks in as per usual, tweak the high pass to clean out mud, if necessary, and try to match what is coming from the amp with a some eq. I can usually get a solid tone from the DI in less than 5 minutes. Often much less.

If there was equal time spent, let's say 15 minutes on each, I could really get the bass sounding exactly the way you want it, and I could do it in a way you approve, and then I could not get to half the show stopping craptastophe that is coming off the dam drumkit, if things go wrong.

And yes, having the singer sound good, both FOH and on stage, is my priority one. Then comes making sure there is no deafening feedback, from mics or acousitcs or whatevers. Then comes no phantom rumblings / ringings / loud buzzes, which usually come from drumkits and guitar rigs that didn't get sorted out / sounding good. These things are total audience distractions. Then comes a solid overall mix, of which bass is an equal part.

I love bass. But as a soundman, my philosophy is: serve the check writer first, the audience second, the band third, me fourth. Simple as that.

SEXUAL CHOCOLATE! </drops mic, walks off stage>

 

[Joe Louvar]

That being said, are you honestly telling me no sound man has ever suggested you use the house whirlwind or proco or countryman (whether you agreed to it or not)?

When he has a REDDI, why would they?

 

[B-string]

Actually I was talking about head vs. DI, not DI vs. better DI. That being said, are you honestly telling me no sound man has ever suggested you use the house whirlwind or proco or countryman (whether you agreed to it or not)?

Why should he? He is not a 14 year old that was driven to a gig in his Mom's soccer van?