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sound guy ignoring direct out on amp
- Thread starter remainthesame
- Start date
- Jan 27, 2010
- 4,141
- 471
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Genz Benz Amplification
Because they don't know what it is, and that scares them. Half the sound guys I've encountered have never heard of Genz Benz. I have to explain to them that it's a small high end company, and that my little 2x12 rig retails around 2 grand. Then they usually get it.
I try not to make a muddy mess, though
Same here - I mostly play MIA Fender Jazz's and EBMMs, and go for clean and warm sound... My cab choices give me enough low end that I don't really need to add much from EQ, if any - occasionally, I'll get asked to cut some lows, but not often... I'm mostly gigging an M-pulse 600, and a Streamliner 900, both of which have killer tube sounding DIs - and I always get out front during soundcheck to listen, since I always run wireless...
- georgestrings
They sure have, but not since I got the REDDI. But I used to get that fairly often when using a head's XLR. Most gigs, not a problem. Once in a while it would be a problem. And I'd always switch if there was a technical issue. And one out of every 5 gigs with an unfamiliar soundman would result in someone balking at my mic when I went back to micing in 2008. Only thing I've used that has met with universal agreement is the REDDI. But I keep thinking that one day someone's going to complain about it...someone who does a lot of drugs, no doubtActually I was talking about head vs. DI, not DI vs. better DI. That being said, are you honestly telling me no sound man has ever suggested you use the house whirlwind or proco or countryman (whether you agreed to it or not)?
Sound Engineering 101:
"Never use the DI on a bass head" (might be affected by master volume, is definitely affected by gain control, and/or some are terrible sounding).
These guys are taught this. For the most part, they don't care if you are the exception.
To them, we all suck anyhow.
"Never use the DI on a bass head" (might be affected by master volume, is definitely affected by gain control, and/or some are terrible sounding).
These guys are taught this. For the most part, they don't care if you are the exception.
To them, we all suck anyhow.
That's really the crux of that attitude, isn't it? To them, we all suck. The band is stupid and just exists to show off their awesome PA and light show.
I greatly prefer working with sound people who don't think you suck out of hand, but I unfortunately get stuck with some who do occasionally. Invariably, they are terrible at their jobs.
I think this is why it's really important, regardless of your band's own level, to have a regular guy. We have our own guy these days and he's done our last 4 major shows. Honestly I'd be uptight about playing any show where we couldn't dictate who was running the sound. I just don't trust people not to screw up.
Great post.
I agree with almost all you say. I will say that when I am playing reggae I just play softer near the neck, I don't even boost the bass if the PA is adequate.
A lot of amps have a shelving low knob which can send too much sub bass to the PA without realising it and can be too much, even for reggae.
I just want to add to this bit;
There are some bassist I have noticed with active basses that like to boost the bass knob on the bass. That an be a nightmare too.
We try to have our own soundman as much as possible but we'd have to turn down a lot of regular gigs we do if we did that.
Something was said earlier about the time it takes for a sound man to dial the tone on the board, and that it should take the same amount of time whether they are taking their own DI, the amp's DI pre or post EQ, or mic'ing the cab. IME, taking the bassist's sound, either via amp DI post EQ or mic'ed cab, makes dialing tone on the board that much easier because you have a more accurate representation of what the player wants right off the bat. Most of my experience is mixing recordings, so I may be off in my perception of things, but I've noticed that my EQ on the board is pretty damn close to flat because I've spent so much time getting it right coming out of my cabs. It seems to me that doing this would make things easier for a soundman to take post EQ DI or mic the speaker. Just my thoughts. What do y'all say?
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,091
- 5
- 221,214
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Wow, reading this you would think all sound guys are idiots...
First of all, I have spent over 30 years behind a console or as a system engineer. For the last 20 or so it's been with primarily professional acts, national and international. I can say without any doubt (at this level anyway) that the vast majority of FOH guys are very, very good. They thoroughly understand their craft and do what is necessaey to get the best, and most consistent sound/mix day after day, often on a different system every night. While I haven't done a club gig in probably 20 years, I can't imagine that ALL club sound guys are that bad. I know that some are, but I also know that some are quite good as well.
The good FOH guy will look at what the amp is, what the stage volume is, what the tone that the bass player is trying to achieve, the gear that the player is using and choose the best tool for the job that gives him the highest chance for doing the bass player right within the context of the mix. It might be the DI on the amp, it might be an external DI, it might be a mic and it might not be the same choice every day. Experience guides these decisions, experience OUT IN THE HOUSE, BUILDING THE MIX, both things that the bass player generally is not a part of during the show.
Now occassionally, I have to work with lower tier bands. Lower tier not because they are not good bands or good players but because they to not take the team approach at gigs. They tend to play at each other rather than with each other, constantly leverage their own agendas that may be at odds with the band, tend to be more concerned with being in control than with letting the sound guy work with his tools, blaming the FOH guy for things that he has nothing to do with etc. Then, when the bass signal sounds crappy at FOH and you try to explain that the post eq signal with huge bass boost through his 410 on stage is unuseable to you at FOH through your substantial PA with LF response far lower than what he has available (though that's what he is trying to get), he argues that post-eq means a special "post" eq curve for the PA and has nothing to do with his eq on stage. Major face palm here. Frankly, it's these "experts" who are educated beyond their own intelligence" that perpetuate many of these bad feelings. We need to keep things moving on stage, we need to be aware of door times, othe band's sound check times, and don't have a lot of available time to "make nice" to anyone (not just the bass player). This is generally why I prefer to work professional touring type shows myself, I don't need to go down the same road every day. Think about it from the sound guy's point of view and you might be more forgiving.
I found myself working a show for a national act that was flying back to Los Angeles from their Asian tour and were doing this gig on the way back to their home up north. I was supposed to be the system engineer, they were carrying their own monitor console, in ear rack, FOH and MON engineers, P.M., mics, splitter. They were going to use my FOH console, racks and stacks, stands and cables. Due to travel logistics, they arrived at our venue almost 3 hours late and due to an error in the advance work all of their gear was freighted back home along with their engineers and PM. Back line was provided by a national company who locked his keys in the truck... since the band was late it didn't matter but it set the tone for a day from hell. Band gets there and I ask to be introduced to the guys I need to work with and suddenly everybody realizes the total and complete f*ck up that's now going down. The good news is that the band is totally cool, they trim down the input list from 40 inputs to 28, we throw out 8 wedges on 4 mixes from FOH (I don't have a ME available) and it's all about compromise. The band helps simplify and keep things moving along. I took a direct from the supplied bass amp amp (not disclosing the brand but not one of ours) and discover during line check that the DI is defective. Grab a Countryman and get 'er done without a hint of attitude from the bass player. I mix FOH, the bass player is totally happy with what I am doing with him at FOH, the band is totally happy and they have one of the best gigs of the tour. Promoter is happy, the audience is happy, I'm exhausted but my reputation with everybody is more than intact. This is how pros assess a situation and make the choices that are most likely to result in the best overall results. Had this been a "less than professional" band it's likely that there would have been some posturing, some negative remarks about the unprepared sound guy (in spite of it being 100% the band's fault), lack of cooperation and teamwork.
First of all, I have spent over 30 years behind a console or as a system engineer. For the last 20 or so it's been with primarily professional acts, national and international. I can say without any doubt (at this level anyway) that the vast majority of FOH guys are very, very good. They thoroughly understand their craft and do what is necessaey to get the best, and most consistent sound/mix day after day, often on a different system every night. While I haven't done a club gig in probably 20 years, I can't imagine that ALL club sound guys are that bad. I know that some are, but I also know that some are quite good as well.
The good FOH guy will look at what the amp is, what the stage volume is, what the tone that the bass player is trying to achieve, the gear that the player is using and choose the best tool for the job that gives him the highest chance for doing the bass player right within the context of the mix. It might be the DI on the amp, it might be an external DI, it might be a mic and it might not be the same choice every day. Experience guides these decisions, experience OUT IN THE HOUSE, BUILDING THE MIX, both things that the bass player generally is not a part of during the show.
Now occassionally, I have to work with lower tier bands. Lower tier not because they are not good bands or good players but because they to not take the team approach at gigs. They tend to play at each other rather than with each other, constantly leverage their own agendas that may be at odds with the band, tend to be more concerned with being in control than with letting the sound guy work with his tools, blaming the FOH guy for things that he has nothing to do with etc. Then, when the bass signal sounds crappy at FOH and you try to explain that the post eq signal with huge bass boost through his 410 on stage is unuseable to you at FOH through your substantial PA with LF response far lower than what he has available (though that's what he is trying to get), he argues that post-eq means a special "post" eq curve for the PA and has nothing to do with his eq on stage. Major face palm here. Frankly, it's these "experts" who are educated beyond their own intelligence" that perpetuate many of these bad feelings. We need to keep things moving on stage, we need to be aware of door times, othe band's sound check times, and don't have a lot of available time to "make nice" to anyone (not just the bass player). This is generally why I prefer to work professional touring type shows myself, I don't need to go down the same road every day. Think about it from the sound guy's point of view and you might be more forgiving.
I found myself working a show for a national act that was flying back to Los Angeles from their Asian tour and were doing this gig on the way back to their home up north. I was supposed to be the system engineer, they were carrying their own monitor console, in ear rack, FOH and MON engineers, P.M., mics, splitter. They were going to use my FOH console, racks and stacks, stands and cables. Due to travel logistics, they arrived at our venue almost 3 hours late and due to an error in the advance work all of their gear was freighted back home along with their engineers and PM. Back line was provided by a national company who locked his keys in the truck... since the band was late it didn't matter but it set the tone for a day from hell. Band gets there and I ask to be introduced to the guys I need to work with and suddenly everybody realizes the total and complete f*ck up that's now going down. The good news is that the band is totally cool, they trim down the input list from 40 inputs to 28, we throw out 8 wedges on 4 mixes from FOH (I don't have a ME available) and it's all about compromise. The band helps simplify and keep things moving along. I took a direct from the supplied bass amp amp (not disclosing the brand but not one of ours) and discover during line check that the DI is defective. Grab a Countryman and get 'er done without a hint of attitude from the bass player. I mix FOH, the bass player is totally happy with what I am doing with him at FOH, the band is totally happy and they have one of the best gigs of the tour. Promoter is happy, the audience is happy, I'm exhausted but my reputation with everybody is more than intact. This is how pros assess a situation and make the choices that are most likely to result in the best overall results. Had this been a "less than professional" band it's likely that there would have been some posturing, some negative remarks about the unprepared sound guy (in spite of it being 100% the band's fault), lack of cooperation and teamwork.
Well I think that's an attitude worth striving for. If I was doing a complete backline gig like that then no problem using any DI, I'll be just trying to dial in something workable for the stage. Plus you used a good DI.
The OP's, and some of our situations are different. When the sound engineer *doesn't* listen to the band at all, doesn't ask, doesn't care, and just barks out orders to use his ancient Whirlwind DI, and you have already heard that he mixes all the bands the same- the same drum sounds for every kit no matter how it's tuned, the same bass sound for heavy rock or smooth jazz- these are the guys we're griping about.
The OP's, and some of our situations are different. When the sound engineer *doesn't* listen to the band at all, doesn't ask, doesn't care, and just barks out orders to use his ancient Whirlwind DI, and you have already heard that he mixes all the bands the same- the same drum sounds for every kit no matter how it's tuned, the same bass sound for heavy rock or smooth jazz- these are the guys we're griping about.
I don't see what is so insecure about wanting what you want, sorry. And obviously when I rant about soundmen, I am not ranting about the tons of soundmen I've worked with who are great. I work with plenty of them, way more often than soundmen who aren't great. But some of the bad soundmen have been spectacularly bad in ways that just make no sense, and you have to tell someone!!!
At the club level or even smaller outdoor event the level of incompetence takes a dramatic rise. To Andy's great post, you can tell who knows their job when they do take the team attitude. Both sides of the board.
great post agedhorse.
But I think the thread is about the extremes. The example you gave is a bit off topic and was just one of those grrrr situations and I am sure most people would just try and get it done in that situation. The OP's situation is where there is time but the guy sticks to what he knows, they are out there in the smaller clubs
For the record I have had no problems with any sound person for a long time. But you get the odd person sound guy and band members, a lot of band members do have some crazy ideas and I can see that jading a in house sound guy in a club
But I think the thread is about the extremes. The example you gave is a bit off topic and was just one of those grrrr situations and I am sure most people would just try and get it done in that situation. The OP's situation is where there is time but the guy sticks to what he knows, they are out there in the smaller clubs
For the record I have had no problems with any sound person for a long time. But you get the odd person sound guy and band members, a lot of band members do have some crazy ideas and I can see that jading a in house sound guy in a club
The only reason for doing that, other than ignorance, is to justify the money they spent on a D.I. box. I've seen the 1001rb XLR used many times and its perfectly fine, that's why its there. I guess if the club your playing in has lights wired to the same circuits as the sound their could be some kind of polarity issue but you won't lose volume or tone with the on-amp direct out. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I'm sorry, but any sound guy that refuses to mic or DI the instrument the way you want them to, then they should be forced to leave the venue, by a nice whack on the head from a jazz bass if you have to. I find that 90% of sound guys these days are absolutely horrible and noobish. I was lucky enough to come across one that actually mixed my DI and mic'd also.
btw, why the heck would anybody DI raw bass into a PA system? thats just plain wrong. any system that DIs bass needs a preamp and speaker emulation to get rid of harsh pickup sounds. that means sansamps or MXRs. if they start bringing out their own DI boxes you better run the other direction.
the bass and the amp together should be treated as one whole instrument.
btw, why the heck would anybody DI raw bass into a PA system? thats just plain wrong. any system that DIs bass needs a preamp and speaker emulation to get rid of harsh pickup sounds. that means sansamps or MXRs. if they start bringing out their own DI boxes you better run the other direction.
the bass and the amp together should be treated as one whole instrument.
