sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

[Marcus Willett]

I've just never, ever met a sound guy where introducing myself, saying please and thanks, showing them the DI on my amp, and politely asking to try that first hasn't worked.

I have, including a situation where I tricked him and he (when thinking I was using his DI) came up to me and told me how great the bass tone was.

I think the crux of the matter is this:

Assuming all people involved are professional and courteous...sometimes not, but lets say they are....

Ostensibly, the job of the soundman is to make the bass sound "good" in the mix. We hear that again and again from DI only supporters....the soundman (again assuming he is a pro) will make the bass sound "good" in the mix...the way it "should" sound.


The problem is there is no objective measure of that. Chris Squire, Tony Levin, Will Lee, Pino Palladino...all of these bassists have what (at least many) would argue is a "good" tone, but they are very different. If a soundman listens to a drumkit, he can know what the source sound is and take whatever steps need to be taken to translate that sound to FOH.

If my pedals, or amp or preamp or cabinet or whatever is necessary to get my sound is removed from the chain, then it becomes a situation where the soundman decides what my sound is...this is very different from him taking my sound (let's say from a mic) and making EQ/compression adjustments to make it work in the room. Taking a direct send from the bass and having the soundman create the bass tone is something different altogether, it is not the same.

The assumption (and that's what it is) that the soundman will make the bass sound good/right in the mix is predicated on the idea that there is some sort of empirical standard of how bass is "supposed" to sound.

There is no such standard, and as long as people (most often soundmen) work from the premise that there is, we will have this problem.

Sure, some soundmen are cool and easy to work with...a lot in fact. But there are many who just "know" how everything "should" sound (including bass tone) that will superimpose their idea on top of the one who is creating the art in the first place. I've hear a lot of mixes (live and studio) where the mixer was very proud of his bass tone and I thought it sound like poo. Guess what? We are both right. But if I'm playing, I decide what my tone is, not you or anyone else.

EDIT: Put another way, I think a lot of people confuse the idea that being a sound man is a craft..that there is a right and wrong way to do it, as opposed to it having artistic components. The sound man is also making artistic and taste choices based on what he likes. This is the potential source of problems when there is disagreement.

 

[lfmn16]

I cannot tell if this is satire or not

If its not satire, then they should be banned from the site. Sorry, but this is the BASS players forum where we come to discuss issues important to BASS players. That attitude belongs on the SOUNDMAN'S forum where we don't need to see it or be insulted by it.

Respect is a two way street. Any sound man that makes you sound bad because you don't suck up is both unprofessional and unethical.

 

[BurningSkies]

I did have a moment this weekend where when I plotted the vocal mics for the soundman he told me that he wasn't going to give our drummer a mic because it 'ruins the drum sound in the house'...to which I said that our band would be disappointed since 3 part harmonies are difficult with only two parts, and that the songs where our drummer sings lead might sound strange.

They ended up giving us a vocal mic behind the kit.

 

[nostatic]

Interesting viewpoints. There are a lot of variables so hard to say there is one way that it *should* be done. I've done showcase type gigs where you're using a house backline and they really just want you to plug into their DI/rig, play, and get the hell off. And I get that. I've had other gigs where I'm playing all night, the soundguy has a DI for me, I politely ask if he can take the feed off my head (post-eq), and I've only had two guys in LA say "no." In those cases I made sure that I was post-pedalboard going into the DI, and I always have an active bass so I can tweak as needed without touching the amp (which likely isn't being heard in the house).

In the end it is just one more factor that is involved in performing, and you either adapt and still play at as well as possible, or you get pissy and let it become an excuse for another "bad gig."

 

[bass4u]

In the past 20 or so gigs I've done, the soundmen use the DI from my GK MB500 without even asking. A few have actually used the DI AND a mic on a cabinet!!!

 

[ThudThudThud]

I have a SAPBDDI as the last thing on my pedal board chain. Right on the left hand side of the pedal board. Sound man takes two XLR cables - one for my bass, and one for my vocals (which go through a Vocalist effect) - to the front of the stage. Couldn't be quicker or easier for them. They get exactly my tone, and they can tweak for the room as required.

 

[fisticuffs]

I have a regular sound guy so this isn't an issue I did have one random guy hired by the bar for new Years a few years back. He pulled out a Pyle DI box. I stopped him right there and had him use the transformer balanced DI on my TC head.
The sound guy is there to work for you (most likely) don't be afraid to tell him what you want.

 

[JimmyM]

I will say this, in an original band I was in once, we always provided a stage plot for the sound man, and when he saw my rig, the effects, etc., he made some great suggestions on the spot. We mic'd my cab, ran a direct out of my head, and a direct line from my bass. He mixed the three at the board and HOLY SMOKES did it sound great. Not all soundmen are your enemy, and he knew what needed to be done simply by looking at the plot, and knew his gear well enough to be able to do this and not blow time up. It was a team effort, and I knew this guy had my back because of how hard he was working to get the best representation of our band out front.

So how many of us hand the soundman a stage plot for our bands? I've found it can often answer a lot of nebulous questions for them, and sometimes gives them really great ideas if they're truly skilled.

Always with a stage plot. Didn't matter to some of them.

 

[HolmeBass]

I will say this, in an original band I was in once, we always provided a stage plot for the sound man, and when he saw my rig, the effects, etc., he made some great suggestions on the spot. We mic'd my cab, ran a direct out of my head, and a direct line from my bass. He mixed the three at the board and HOLY SMOKES did it sound great. Not all soundmen are your enemy, and he knew what needed to be done simply by looking at the plot, and knew his gear well enough to be able to do this and not blow time up. It was a team effort, and I knew this guy had my back because of how hard he was working to get the best representation of our band out front.

So how many of us hand the soundman a stage plot for our bands? I've found it can often answer a lot of nebulous questions for them, and sometimes gives them really great ideas if they're truly skilled.

I have had similar experiences. I've had engineers take just the DI from my amp, post EQ, at a festival for ~500 people, and get an *amazing* sound. I run two channels on my amp, one clean and one crunch, I really need post-EQ DI or a mic. Good engineers grasp that immediately and do it with aplomb. They make it look easy.

Then there's the other kind... And that's what this thread is about. The guy who looks at your pedal board and says, "Why do have all of those effects? You play bass!" Then hands you a Rapco DI and tells you to run it before your pedal board. I'm sorry, but there is no defense for this attitude, and all you sound guys who are getting butt hurt about this need to get some real perspective. Maybe you're not like this. Maybe at your stage in your bass career you no longer have to deal with people who are like this. (Thank goodness I almost never do myself either!) But they are out there, and there is simply no defense for that kind of attitude. I don't care how many bands you have to mix tonight, or how young the bassist is.

 

[agedhorse]

A good sound guy will have a good idea what every player is trying to sound like by listening to the sound coming off the stage. That, in the context of the music being played, the style, etc. gets you well into the zone and sometimes closer than the player can accomplish without help from the PA. The same applies to every instrument. I am often asked to help a vocalist out with some fx, maybe a little compression, verb, delay and chorus subtly layered. My experience usually gets better results than they hope for and allow the vocal to sound natural (less forced or phoney) and fit into the mix better. This is where some skill and art come into play. It's part of the big picture and vocalists generally appreciate the effort when they hear the results. Their added confidence on stage translates to a better performance by them and its noticeable to the audience.

What might seem good on paper may not translate well in the mix. A good foh guy will get to where it needs to be without wasting a lot of time or reinventing the wheel.

 

[DwaynieAD]

I normally approach a soundguy before he approaches me. Ask him "do you want to use my on board DI or mic my cab?" 9 times out of 10 the answer is that they hand me an xlr and we're done. twice they've mic'd me and one time he said "I have this DI I normally use" to which I replied "whatever you think is gonna make us sound the best" he handed me the xlr and I plugged it into my GK's on board DI.

My entire band is regularly thanked by soundguys for being easy to work with. we thank them for what they do constantly.

 

[pbass2]

That's kind of a weak excuse IMO. People say this as though amps just fail left and right at every gig. In 20 years of gigging I've had two amps fail during a gig, and both were supplied back line we were required to use. I've owned about a dozen heads, and none have ever failed on the gig. I know this isn't everyone's experience, but if someone comes in with a 1001RB or something else of reasonable quality I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that it'll make it through the next 45 minutes.

On top of that, when an amp fails it's usually when you turn it on.

Last tour I was on, on two separate occasions the backline SVT failed(during the set), and they were at two separate House of Blues gigs. You'd think they'd have their gear pretty well maintained, but ya never know. I like the confidence of using a separate DI. Of course, I always bring my own, and no soundman has ever refused to let me swap in mine if their box is of lesser quality.

 

[JimmyM]

+1

I have the same thought process. The idea that you can fight with some arrogant sound guy is pointless. When you do that they turn you down in the mix and / or turn up the "suck" knob on your channel. It's far better to learn how to work with someone no matter how ignorant or arrogant they are.

To get through the gig, yes. And then can them and never work with them again.

The bass player is not the only person on stage that has to put up with this stuff. Keyboard guys, drummers and guitarists also have to deal with this crap. I have seen drummers complain and act like babies because they have to use a plexiglass sound screen or the guitarist doesn't want the sound guy to use a limiter or compressor on him because he is already using a compressor. But in the FOH it sounds like crap when he steps TS808 Tube Screamer.

"Sounds like crap" is a matter of opinion. He may think it's the best sound ever and you just don't get it. I've had that happen with distortion...once had a soundman say, "Hey man, you have something going wrong with your rig...every now and then, I get this awful distortion." I said, "That's me doing it with a pedal, and it sounds awesome up here...got no clue why it sounds bad to you unless you're one of those weirdos who doesn't like distortion on bass." He says, "Yeah, I am."

Once again. I keep saying that once that signal leaves your amp and feeds into the board and then into the FOH system you tone is usually not the same. You have no control over that. Your tone may be problematic for the room which effects the mix. Everyone has to get over themselves and just just play the best you can.

Obviously the mix comes into play. But I manage to get the same tone in the house as the amp on a whole lot of my gigs, so I know it can be done.

 

[Brady4]

they like to have "control" over your tone. MOst D.I. Boxes are "flat" and give them complete tonal control.

 

[JimmyM]

Sometimes, the bass player (or it could be anyone else in the band) insists on something that they really think sounds great without listening to it in the context of the whole band and the overall mix. If they heard another band doing the same thing out front, they would criticize. When this happens, the sound guy may try to help things out but in the end if the player doesn't care to work with the mix rather than against it (even if the band does care), sometimes it's the least of the evils to bury him in the mix and move on.

This is where being a d*ck just doesn't pay off, while you think you have all this control, in the end you don't really. The sound guy (again, I am assuming a real sound guy) is paid to do a job and do it well. He is not paid to take abuse, just like a band member is not paid to take abuse. Speaking of abuse, taking a sound guy out or whatever, probably not a great idea at most gigs, especially union gigs where after one swing will earn you either a painful or legal lesson you won't ever forget. There's talking tough and then there's really tough.

Yeah, I don't condone anyone taking a swing at a soundman. Especially me since I'm a pencil neck geek! But I did talk very sternly to the guy who sneaked an XLR into my amp without telling me and I don't feel the least bit bad about it

 

[R Baer]

...A few of the sound guys in my area... always unplug me from my amp (the input is right next to the direct out, you cant miss it) and they hook me up to their di box...

If I was a sound guy I would rather use the direct out that comes on most bass amps these days. You simply plug in an XLR, dial in a tone on the mixing board and you're done...

I think a lot of what you are dealing with has to do with the type of venue you are playing in. If you are playing local clubs, you have to keep in mind the situation the sound guy is in. There are some things you have to consider from their point of view. Often, they are the only sound person working the sound and they may have to set up and tear down a couple, or more bands a night. At that point, their first priority really becomes getting you set up as fast as possible and getting you onstage somewhat on schedule. Remember that he is dealing with a lot of different bassist and different amplifiers. By using his own direct box, he has now inserted a piece of equipment into the mix that he is totally familiar with and that saves him time.

The other thing is reliability. By using the direct out of your amplifier, if that amp goes down during the show, there's now no longer any bass in the mix and it's panic time for the sound guy trying to figure out what went wrong. Now you may think "How many times have I had an amp fail in mid performance" and figure the chances are pretty slim. From his point of view, after dealing with hundreds of bands, using who knows what for amplifiers, he has probably seen this happen quite often. By running you into a passive direct box first and then running that output into your amp, should your amp die mid performance, he still has bass in the PA. There's a huge element of safety here for the sound guy and it does make sense from his point of view. The chance of that passive DI failing are extremely low.

You guys also can't use the argument that if the sound guy is willing to take the time to mic the guitar cabinet, then he should have time to work with your amp's direct out. You have to keep in mind that "micing the guitar amp" does not mean that he has talked with the guitar player about the best mic and mic placement to use, so that the guitarist gets the sound he is after. Micing the cabinet simply means sticking the exact same mic (probably an SM57) in front of one speaker and calling it good... just like he does for every guitar amp he encounters. Same deal. He is using a cheap, reliable piece of gear that he is familiar with.

Like it, or not, these are the realities we face as players. Now, when you band is a bigger name act, or you are headlining you may have the clout to demand a little more attention towards getting your sound. In the meantime, the reality is that you need to worry about your sound onstage and leave the FOH business to the sound guy ... and hope for the best!

 

[JimmyM]

I did have a moment this weekend where when I plotted the vocal mics for the soundman he told me that he wasn't going to give our drummer a mic because it 'ruins the drum sound in the house'...to which I said that our band would be disappointed since 3 part harmonies are difficult with only two parts, and that the songs where our drummer sings lead might sound strange.

They ended up giving us a vocal mic behind the kit.

Now that's just moronic.

 

[Mark Reccord]

Now that's just moronic.

In my time I have seen a lot of moronic things on both sides of the mixing desk. As have you, I'd imagine.

 

[georgestrings]

Changing your sound throughout the night
---can be on purpose---
I change the eq, at my bass, often during a show.
Not a lot, but, different songs call for different feels.

Exactly - if there was an issue, I'd certainly take corrective behavior - but I have enough sucessful gigs under my belt to know that any issues with my approach won't be on my end of things...

The soundmen that *try* to force me to send them unaffected DI take away my ability to alter my sound as needed for the different styles I cover during a gig - which is not acceptable to me in any way... I realize that there are plenty of inexperienced bassists, or hacks, or hacks with crappy gear - but that isn't me... I also don't play multi-band bills, so that excuse doesn't cut it in my situation...


- georgestrings

 

[modulusman]

I think a lot of what you are dealing with has to do with the type of venue you are playing in. If you are playing local clubs, you have to keep in mind the situation the sound guy is in. There are some things you have to consider from their point of view. Often, they are the only sound person working the sound and they may have to set up and tear down a couple, or more bands a night. At that point, their first priority really becomes getting you set up as fast as possible and getting you onstage somewhat on schedule. Remember that he is dealing with a lot of different bassist and different amplifiers. By using his own direct box, he has now inserted a piece of equipment into the mix that he is totally familiar with and that saves him time.

The other thing is reliability. By using the direct out of your amplifier, if that amp goes down during the show, there's now no longer any bass in the mix and it's panic time for the sound guy trying to figure out what went wrong. Now you may think "How many times have I had an amp fail in mid performance" and figure the chances are pretty slim. From his point of view, after dealing with hundreds of bands, using who knows what for amplifiers, he has probably seen this happen quite often. By running you into a passive direct box first and then running that output into your amp, should your amp die mid performance, he still has bass in the PA. There's a huge element of safety here for the sound guy and it does make sense from his point of view. The chance of that passive DI failing are extremely low.

You guys also can't use the argument that if the sound guy is willing to take the time to mic the guitar cabinet, then he should have time to work with your amp's direct out. You have to keep in mind that "micing the guitar amp" does not mean that he has talked with the guitar player about the best mic and mic placement to use, so that the guitarist gets the sound he is after. Micing the cabinet simply means sticking the exact same mic (probably an SM57) in front of one speaker and calling it good... just like he does for every guitar amp he encounters. Same deal. He is using a cheap, reliable piece of gear that he is familiar with.

Like it, or not, these are the realities we face as players. Now, when you band is a bigger name act, or you are headlining you may have the clout to demand a little more attention towards getting your sound. In the meantime, the reality is that you need to worry about your sound onstage and leave the FOH business to the sound guy ... and hope for the best!

Great post. BTW if you are in a band that is constantly having bad soundmen just remember talent rises to its own level.