They are just lazy and know their own box. Tell them they have two choices: 1) Use the DI from your amp head. 2) Mike your speaker cab.
Exactly -simple yet correct advice
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sound guy ignoring direct out on amp
- Thread starter remainthesame
- Start date
Exactly -simple yet correct advice
- Feb 8, 2005
- 3,636
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- Endorsing Artist: Bag End - Dean Markley - Thunderfunk
This is correct.
A proper analogy (that is to say remove any and all tone shaping that is after the output jack of the instrument...and...this is important for the inevitable synth comparison...any onboard DSP) would be:
Guitarist: Plug into a DI and I will get all of your tone changes and FX that is needed on my end and make it sound "right". Never happens, although the issues presented by micing a guitar amp and him changing tones are exactly the reasons why we are routinely told it's "best" to just DI the bass.
Keyboardist (non acoustic since the soundman would have no choice but to mic): raw patch data with no FX or EQ applied so the soundman can get it to sound "right" FOH. Never happens, although again, it would address the exact issues we are told soundmen need to avoid to make things sound "right".
Any acoustic instrument by definition must be mic'ed so no analogies there.
Jimmy is right. Electric bass is the only instrument that is told as a matter of routine that any and all tone shaping needs to be done FOH.
Okay, so I use a gk 1001rbII. Anybody familiar with the amp probably knows and loves the direct out on it. A few of the sound guys in my area seem to either ignore it or hate it or something. They always unplug me from my amp (the input is right next to the direct out, you cant miss it) and they hook me up to their di box. Now there's a couple things that bother me about this, only one of them actually effects me, but the rest is just as annoying.
First issue, it renders my tuner mute totally useless. You can hear me try to tune through the pa while my singer talks to the crowd. Which to me is unprofessional, I know I hate seeing other bands do that. I know I can unplug and go to the tuner but if he used the direct out on my amp, I wouldn't have to do that.
My second issue is, If I was a sound guy I would rather use the direct out that comes on most bass amps these days. You simply plug in an XLR, dial in a tone on the mixing board and you're done. They usually only sound check me for about 7 seconds before telling me to stop playing anyway. They might as well save the additional couple seconds it takes to unplug me and hook me up to the box.
Whenever we set up and I see the sound guy comming my way I tell them about the direct out. They usually say one of the following:
"i just want to make sure it has a ground lift"--- theres a ground lift on the one on my amp.
"nah my box is better" --- as he pulls out a crappy $25 di
"this way is easier for me" --- which i cannot prove to be wrong, but in my mind it would be easier to use the one on the amp.
Does anybody else think this is crazy? Or am I the one being an idiot here?
Galvanic isolation is the reason.
Every cheap passive DI-Box provides Ground Lift.
Using the DI on your GK needs either Ground Lift on your amp or a symmetric cable where grounding is disconnected at one end of the wire.
The GK DI is based on an active schematic design which contains a lot transistors whereas the sound guy's DI is a pure passive design with a very less number of passive components (three, or four at most).
So any mail function on any DI is more at the GK site then on a sound mans' low cost passive DI (because it is passive that contains only three or four passive components, two resistors, one or two switches, and one transformer).
Sometimes I'm very surprised about the common worldwide misunderstanding regarding to the means of DI signal routing.
I've used XLR's from amps many times and never needed to lift the ground at every gig, nor have I needed a lifted ground on a mic cable. Sometimes yes, I have needed a ground lift, but certainly not on every gig.
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Never mind that most speakers are heavily voiced... you may think that he's forced to your sound but in reality he's forced to your sound minus the voicing of the cabinet which in general means that if your amp's eq is being used in conjunction with your cabinet's voicing, the signal is now eq'd to something that is not part of the equation.
Also, just a note for folks who do this, for amps that use a bridged output stage (most class D amps) plus some class AB/G/H you can damage either the amp, the DI or the input stage of the console (specifically the ground path) if the ground lift switch contains a hard ground connection to console pin 1 ground (most do). This is because the sleeve terminal on the DI's input which is expected to be at ground is not on a bridged amp. The damage can be quite severe. This is one instance where a sound guy SHOULD refuse connection to such a set-up.
Also, just a note for folks who do this, for amps that use a bridged output stage (most class D amps) plus some class AB/G/H you can damage either the amp, the DI or the input stage of the console (specifically the ground path) if the ground lift switch contains a hard ground connection to console pin 1 ground (most do). This is because the sleeve terminal on the DI's input which is expected to be at ground is not on a bridged amp. The damage can be quite severe. This is one instance where a sound guy SHOULD refuse connection to such a set-up.
Well, I've been doing this a long time, and have quite a few sucessful gigs under my belt - I'm well aware of the differences in EQ from a bass rig to a PA...
CDs and mp3s are hardly a valid comparison - given the overly compressed nature of those mediums vs live entertainment...
Since you brought up EQ changes, what is your solution to a bassist that plays a 4 hour gig with a wide range of material??? - settle for one "generic" bass sound all night, or try to do something about it??? Not to sound too arrogant, but the fact that my bands usually draw pretty well tells me I must be doing something right...
- georgestrings
I needed the ground lift very often.
And that is very big benefit of Di because Ground Lift can be enabled all the time.
Sometimes I needed Ground Lift when I was doing the FOH mix at stage where everything is plugged into the same line socket.
I can't explain it to myself, but sometimes I needed Ground Lift to eliminate a 50Hz hum.
My suggestion is to bring your own soundman that can either make these tonal changes at the console or work with you so that your changes on stage will be consistent with out front.
Are some of you guys actually changing settings on your bass amp during a set? Maybe I'm old-fashioned(or maybe have done too much soundman work myself, but I would just never do that once I get the onstage sound dialed in, unless there's a problem like it becomes apparent I'm too loud onstage, lows need to roll off, etc. Of course I'll make song-dependent tonal changes on the bass and on my pedals, but on the amp--never.
The only exception I can recall is one tune on my last tour where I had to end with a bunch of feedback and THEN I would do it at the (mic'd)amp, but the FOH guy knew exactly when in the set it was going to happen. Then the settings went right back to where they were. (I also had a pedal set to give me a similar effect if the backline amp wasn't up to the feedback task)
Yeah, I make changes during the course of a set, depending on the material I'm covering at the moment - my band goes out of it's way to cover a song well, and not just phone in an effort... Honestly, if done skillfully enough, what differences do you think there are between "making song-dependent tonal changes on the bass and on my pedals", or making them at the amp??? Sometimes I make them at the amp, sometimes at the basses - whatever works - and I don't use pedals of any kind - just not into them... My amp is set mostly flat, and the changes I make are nothing radical - but I want them to translate thru to the FOH...
- georgestrings
That's a nice idea.
I did it that way very often, and it sounds great to the audience.
but sometimes either the sound guy is worse, ore sometimes the bass player as well ...
Makes no fun to stay at the audience just this moment.
Chef
In Memoriam
This is all "basic good player stuff," and I consider myself proficient at it.
However, this has more to do with "good results in general than good results from a DI."
IMO. Maybe I read your post wrongly.
However, this has more to do with "good results in general than good results from a DI."
IMO. Maybe I read your post wrongly.
Sure, no problem. My friend has a lot of studio and live experience as an engineer, and here are the things we worked on.
1st you want to make sure your instrument is in good shape in terms of setup, intonation, strings, etc. because a DI will magnify any flaws.
2nd engineers will often have opinions about which bass, amp, eq, etc. and it's good to listen to those opinions if you trust the engineer (my guy loves my pedulla so that's what I use when I work with him) some people use studio techniques such as flatwound strings, or foam under the strings.
3rd is learning how to control your tone with your hands and the instrument (as opposed to outboard gear). the most important is using right and left hand positioning and technique to get the tone you want. where you pluck in the space between the bridge and neck is basically your eq. and obviously having a deep understanding of what the different pickup selectors and tone controls do. my friend likes passive basses with all controls "full up" but that is not a universal.
4th is technique, engineers love it when you have clean technique with full control over dynamics, muting, etc. a great way to practice this is with headphones or studio monitors. muting in particular is something I emphasize with my students, stamping out any sympathetic vibrations between the strings. and obviously you don't want to have any fret buzz, strings hitting the pickups, etc. (unless done in a controled way as part of your style/sound) practicing with a di (even if you never plan to do so on a gig/recording) is really a great way to put your playing under the microscope and clean up little flaws in your technique.
hope that helps!
Chef
In Memoriam
"you guys really change your tone at the amp on stage?"
As a rule, no, because I have active and passive eq on all my basses.
Between that, and right and left hand technique, I very seldom touch my amp, ever, even from venue to venue. But, if I need to, I will.
None of what I do throughout a show, in terms of changing my "color palette," is drastic enough to give a sound guy any cause to touch the board, IMO, IME
As a rule, no, because I have active and passive eq on all my basses.
Between that, and right and left hand technique, I very seldom touch my amp, ever, even from venue to venue. But, if I need to, I will.
None of what I do throughout a show, in terms of changing my "color palette," is drastic enough to give a sound guy any cause to touch the board, IMO, IME
I actually have a Countryman, and had a JDI before that - and prefer the tube sounding DIs in my M-pulse 600 and Stremliner 900...
- georgestrings
BTW, there have been a handful of gigs where we've brought a soundman and were told once we got there that our soundman wasn't allowed to touch the gear. And in one case, the soundman was ordered to stay away from FOH position because the house soundman was getting intimidated by our guy's knowledge. That was a fun night.
After reading Andy's, Alex's and my own posts it does seem like there are opinions that will not be changed even based on honest answers by players who are also trained soundmen.
I've been a professional soundman on at least 150 shows in rooms that hold 300+ to 20,000 seat outdoor venues. It doesn't matter what city, the bottom line is always the same. Get your band to sound great within the limited time available and with the gear you have to work with.
If you want the best possible out front sound, leave nothing to chance and bring your own trained sound man.
I've paid plenty of sound guys $50-100 to mix just one set of bands I've been in and usually more than each band memember made as an opening act.
Seems like the problems folks are having is with untrained or mean spirited house guys. I don't know of a fool proof way to fix this other than bring your own man, or deal with the short comings.
I was out years ago with an act signed to Geffen and we were opening at the old Savoy in NY for The Jam. They gave us 10 unused channels on a 40 input console and wasted hours telling jokes and a really long, unnecessary soundcheck. We were given 10 minutes to establish gain structures, EQ, and levels which gave us time for a 3 minute song. We had to give their lighting guy $75 to turn on a dozen par cans so the band wouldn't be in darkness on a big stage.
On top of that it was a union hall, so we were not allowed to move our gear on and off stage (2 small guitar amps, 1 spare, standard 4x10 bass amp, and a 4 piece drumset) which also killed us on time and control.
That was one of the best gigs they played as our entire band and crew were united to kick a$$ and take names based on such a lousy treatment by a band we formerly thought highly of.
I engineered some tracks at the old Power Station and Tony Bongiovi gave me the best advice I've ever receivded.
Something like "it doesn't matter if the console is a Neve, SSL, or Tascam; same with the mics, tape decks, or outboard gear; all that really matters is 3 things. The song, the song, and the song.
I've been a professional soundman on at least 150 shows in rooms that hold 300+ to 20,000 seat outdoor venues. It doesn't matter what city, the bottom line is always the same. Get your band to sound great within the limited time available and with the gear you have to work with.
If you want the best possible out front sound, leave nothing to chance and bring your own trained sound man.
I've paid plenty of sound guys $50-100 to mix just one set of bands I've been in and usually more than each band memember made as an opening act.
Seems like the problems folks are having is with untrained or mean spirited house guys. I don't know of a fool proof way to fix this other than bring your own man, or deal with the short comings.
I was out years ago with an act signed to Geffen and we were opening at the old Savoy in NY for The Jam. They gave us 10 unused channels on a 40 input console and wasted hours telling jokes and a really long, unnecessary soundcheck. We were given 10 minutes to establish gain structures, EQ, and levels which gave us time for a 3 minute song. We had to give their lighting guy $75 to turn on a dozen par cans so the band wouldn't be in darkness on a big stage.
On top of that it was a union hall, so we were not allowed to move our gear on and off stage (2 small guitar amps, 1 spare, standard 4x10 bass amp, and a 4 piece drumset) which also killed us on time and control.
That was one of the best gigs they played as our entire band and crew were united to kick a$$ and take names based on such a lousy treatment by a band we formerly thought highly of.
I engineered some tracks at the old Power Station and Tony Bongiovi gave me the best advice I've ever receivded.
Something like "it doesn't matter if the console is a Neve, SSL, or Tascam; same with the mics, tape decks, or outboard gear; all that really matters is 3 things. The song, the song, and the song.
I can never understand how people so often fail to comprehend that the EQ they choose to get a particular sound through a purpose built bass cabinet on stage may have little to do with achieving a similar sound through a PA system. Especially if the cab is heavily voiced (as many are) and the PA is relatively flat. Obsessing over sending "your" EQ to front of house may well as you seem to point out be somewhat self defeating. I'd much rather send a signal with full harmonic content and let the FOH guy slot it in the mix without hamstringing him in any way...if he's good he'll know what to do and if he sucks it won't make much difference. I know I often need more upper mid out front to slot into a mix well vs what sounds good to me on stage. I choose to have faith that my choice of instrument, strings, DI and touch will put "my" sound out into the house.
As for not being able to mute while tuning put yer danged tuner in front of the DI. With 99.9% of stompbox tuners problem solved.
Oh my, I wasn't dissing your playing.
Just saying "I had a 10 hour private lesson with an engineer, and these are the specific things we worked on." As in, this is my personal experience which you specifically asked me to share.
Jeff, it's not so much the EQ voicing as it is the general tone. I felt the DI in my hybrids when I was using them sounded better than any crap DI I was getting. Once in a while someone would bring a Countryman or a Radial and I didn't worry so much about it but I've had a lot of crap DI's supplied on gigs where they should have been used only to prop up monitors.
That said, I did like being able to have some control for the house sound. Won't lie. I get out in the house during our shows a fair amount and I liked being able to fix stuff the soundman screwed up, if it was screwed up. But it was first and foremost the quality of tone, and considering that so many bass players set their amps and forget them, it's kind of a red herring, isn't it?
That said, I did like being able to have some control for the house sound. Won't lie. I get out in the house during our shows a fair amount and I liked being able to fix stuff the soundman screwed up, if it was screwed up. But it was first and foremost the quality of tone, and considering that so many bass players set their amps and forget them, it's kind of a red herring, isn't it?
