This isn't true. It is a constant challenge to work with guitarists. I complain more about guitarists than any other single band instrument, when I feel like complaining. Which isn't too often. But they can be a wicked PITA.
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sound guy ignoring direct out on amp
- Thread starter remainthesame
- Start date
This isn't true. It is a constant challenge to work with guitarists. I complain more about guitarists than any other single band instrument, when I feel like complaining. Which isn't too often. But they can be a wicked PITA.
Bottom line is that there's no one "right" way to deal with this. You either get that your stage sound and your FOH sound are not in practice necessarily the same thing or you don't. If you want to ignore what the audience may actually be hearing from you it's no skin off my nose.
As far as using a rack tuner a mute anywhere in line it needs to be is not a huge or costly piece of technical wizardry. What seems obvious to me is who's found an external DI they like and are willing to accommodate and who hasn't.
That is why i noted about using the speaker switch on the radial jdi.. Its been specifically engineered for the purpose. And also get the benefit of the amps limiter.
You can always use the amp's line out as a feed into the DI. That separates the DI from the amp's circuitry in case there's a question about wiring integrity and provides a post-EQ feed into the DI. If there's a ground loop, use the DI's ground lift button. Solves multiple issues. Everyone's happy.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,984
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- 220,759
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Because it's MUCH easier to get a representative sound micing a guitar. Why you might ask? Because a guitar signal is not very low frequency, it's coming from a single full range speaker (rather than a multi-way cabinet) and the effects, speaker break-up, compression, and everything else is in a range that is more mic friendly overall. Besides, the guitar's speaker is used as a complex low pass filter so the tone is heavily influenced by this in the acosustic signal path.
For bass guitar, the dominant signal is very low frequency which is difficult to mic accurately, but with the high attack harmonics reproducted by either a mid or tweeter, the low frequency bleed from a nearby kick drum can be quite high. The speaker being heavily voiced may weigh in favor of micing if the above issues can be overcome. Note that many bass oriented mics are also heavily voiced and conbtain significant proximity effect so positioning can ba a challange to getting consistent results.
Everything is a trade-off, and of course the overall mix is a tradeoff as well. By minimizing the challenges associated with micing the bass some of the other challenges with the FOH mix become more manageable.
Makes perfect sense to me... I always have a chat with a soundman that's new to me - outlining my gear, and the approach I intend to take - and also telling them to let me know if my send is too hot, or if they need a ground lift, or whatever... I'm also over by their console while we're nailing down the bass sound at the start, and get out front during soundcheck, too... I'm not so self centered that I'd hurt my band's performance - but I want things to be right, and want us to sound the way our fans are used to hearing us sound - after all, they're the ones ringing the till...
- georgestrings
Chef
In Memoriam
Moderator Insert:
I just got hailed in here for the third time today. This is -not good-
I'm going to say this one more time:
make your points politely, or, don't post.
feel free to hit the ignore button if some particular user offends your sensibilities,
or
hit the report post button.
From here on out, next time I get hailed in here, I'll give the offending users a time out and close the thread.
In my lowly opinion there is nothing, in any internet forum, worth getting so wound up and confrontational about.
I've asked nicely for kindness in this thread more than once.
Behave, or, get tossed.
I just got hailed in here for the third time today. This is -not good-
I'm going to say this one more time:
make your points politely, or, don't post.
feel free to hit the ignore button if some particular user offends your sensibilities,
or
hit the report post button.
From here on out, next time I get hailed in here, I'll give the offending users a time out and close the thread.
In my lowly opinion there is nothing, in any internet forum, worth getting so wound up and confrontational about.
I've asked nicely for kindness in this thread more than once.
Behave, or, get tossed.
Chef
In Memoriam
So is this a problem with the Genz Benz SM 9.2? Because that's what I gig with, and I've never heard of this issue, and never had a problem with it live. But I want to know if I've just been lucky so far...
Yes this is why P12's, C12N's, Greenbacks, Bulldogs and the like are highly regarded.
Bass the most regarded are JBL and Altecs.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,984
- 5
- 220,759
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
This could be a problem using the speaker output. Not all DI's have a hard connection between shell and speaker minus but most do.
I (really) do not recommend using the speaker output into a DI on any of the Shuttles, Max's or Streamliners as they all share the same power amp technology. The DI out that's built into the amp is derived well before any output stage, but the headphone outs do come from the output stage through a series of filter elements.
The same goes for any amplifier using class D amplifiers operating in BTL mode (which is just about every popular micro amp on the market).
OK, so why doesn't bass need it? And why do clean guitarists still use mic'ed amps?
Ok, but the amps's DI is ok, just DI'ing off of the speaker output is a possible danger. Good to know, as I do have an outboard DI that can take speaker level signals, although I don't think it can handle the output of the SM 9.2. Thanks for the info. I always use the amps DI these days, been years since anyone forced me to use an outboard DI. And the 9.2 has pre and post out, so it's all good, although I have another question- in pre out mode, does the DI capture gain changes from switching amp channels? I run the FET channel sort of fat and smooth, but the tube channel high gain for bit of crunch/break-up. Since most engineers are happy with post, I really don't know. I suppose I could run some experiments here with my recorder, but would be happy to benefit again from your knowledge Agedhorse.
A couple of comments I absolutely have to respond to:
"Harder? Yes. Impossible? Hell, you can hear bands all over the world mix themselves, and if they have any degree of competence at all, it sounds just fine."
Are you kidding me? Did someone reinvent the laws of physics? There is no way you can do a GOOD job mixing from the stage. Your ears need to be in the same position of the sound field as the audience. when the audience is there. Particularly since most venues are not very well designed for sound. So sometimes you think from the stage your tone sucks, but that's just because you are in a bad spot for gauging the low frequency response of the room. The only way you know if the bass tone is right is if you can walk your self out in to the FOH and listen, while the audience is there. Period.
"The only reason soundmen don't like them is because it could give the bass player the slightest little bit of control over his/her sound."
No. They simply don't want control of YOUR sound from the stage where you are not in as good position to hear what the audience is hearing, to interfere with his/her mix. Your sound is your stage sound. It sounds this way only to you from your position on stage. And I guarantee your sound varies depending on the venue doesn't it? Your tweaking it constantly to get it right will interfere with his mix. You don't tweak once you set up? Well having done sound in the past I know that most musicians constantly twiddle till things sound right to them ON STAGE. But of course the stage sound is not FOH sound. If your direct out bypasses the EQ then much of YOUR sound is being bypassed as well.
Not to mention not all venues have great power circuits. There can be any number of different grounds, sometimes ground is virtual. Sometimes nose in the AC circuitry varies with loads. The DI output from the amp will not be isolated from this. The craptastic DI provided by the house will probably be.
Also if there are many bands, a DI for the bass provides a more predictable baseline signal than varying DI Outputs from multiple amps
"Harder? Yes. Impossible? Hell, you can hear bands all over the world mix themselves, and if they have any degree of competence at all, it sounds just fine."
Are you kidding me? Did someone reinvent the laws of physics? There is no way you can do a GOOD job mixing from the stage. Your ears need to be in the same position of the sound field as the audience. when the audience is there. Particularly since most venues are not very well designed for sound. So sometimes you think from the stage your tone sucks, but that's just because you are in a bad spot for gauging the low frequency response of the room. The only way you know if the bass tone is right is if you can walk your self out in to the FOH and listen, while the audience is there. Period.
"The only reason soundmen don't like them is because it could give the bass player the slightest little bit of control over his/her sound."
No. They simply don't want control of YOUR sound from the stage where you are not in as good position to hear what the audience is hearing, to interfere with his/her mix. Your sound is your stage sound. It sounds this way only to you from your position on stage. And I guarantee your sound varies depending on the venue doesn't it? Your tweaking it constantly to get it right will interfere with his mix. You don't tweak once you set up? Well having done sound in the past I know that most musicians constantly twiddle till things sound right to them ON STAGE. But of course the stage sound is not FOH sound. If your direct out bypasses the EQ then much of YOUR sound is being bypassed as well.
Not to mention not all venues have great power circuits. There can be any number of different grounds, sometimes ground is virtual. Sometimes nose in the AC circuitry varies with loads. The DI output from the amp will not be isolated from this. The craptastic DI provided by the house will probably be.
Also if there are many bands, a DI for the bass provides a more predictable baseline signal than varying DI Outputs from multiple amps
DUH! You don't think they don't do that? I certainly do when I have to run sound from the stage.
Excuse me, but when a soundman is mixing my band, that is MY mix, not theirs.
I realize you probably don't know me, so I'm just going to pretend this paragraph never existed, as I have posted my feelings about this type of thinking in this thread and others quite a few times. Trying hard not to get banned on here, know what I mean?
You don't know that till you try it.
I don't care. If it isn't the sound I like, that's all there is to it. It's my gig, not the soundman's. Is the soundman drawing people into the joint or the band? Ideally it should be a showing of mutual respect...the band to the soundman because he's trying to get the band's sound out to the crowd, and the soundman to the band for (hopefully) providing their club with an audience, which keeps him employed. If a soundman refuses to use a bass player's own DI or mic, or demands they bypass their effects, and does it without even considering who they're working with or what they want, that is total disrespect.
OK my $.02 as a sound guy and a bass player.
I'll most often DI a bass. Why? Because I'm lazy? No! Because the name of the art of doing what I do is "sound reinforcement". Often, the sound from the bass amp is boomy, muddy, and just plain bad when it gets to the middle of the room. I won't go into the physics of acoustics but y'all should research room nodes. So, what does the direct signal do? It allows me to add clarity to the sound that's coming from your amp. In other words, I take the (usually too loud) sound from your amp on stage and blend it with a nice clean bass signal to add some clarity back into the room.
Think of it this way, when you say a word you have the sound of your vocal chords making a very unrefined sound. What separates one word from another word is the shape of your mouth, what your tongue is doing, and the if you add ch's, th's, s's, k's etc... Those frequencies live in the 5,000 to 8,000 Hz range. Our ears have evolved to be sensitive to those frequencies because that's where words are formed.
So when you're playing your bass in ultra-rumble mode, I can't tell one note from the next 50 feet away. So I'll use your DI signal to add that 1,000 to 5,000 Hz into your signal to make your notes pop out.
That being said, if a bass player walks in with a pedalboard full of distortion boxes I'll usually toss a mic on the cabinet because DI distortion sounds nasty.
Now everyone tell me I'm doing it wrong.
Then go mix bands for a month or two and get back to me on that.
I'll most often DI a bass. Why? Because I'm lazy? No! Because the name of the art of doing what I do is "sound reinforcement". Often, the sound from the bass amp is boomy, muddy, and just plain bad when it gets to the middle of the room. I won't go into the physics of acoustics but y'all should research room nodes. So, what does the direct signal do? It allows me to add clarity to the sound that's coming from your amp. In other words, I take the (usually too loud) sound from your amp on stage and blend it with a nice clean bass signal to add some clarity back into the room.
Think of it this way, when you say a word you have the sound of your vocal chords making a very unrefined sound. What separates one word from another word is the shape of your mouth, what your tongue is doing, and the if you add ch's, th's, s's, k's etc... Those frequencies live in the 5,000 to 8,000 Hz range. Our ears have evolved to be sensitive to those frequencies because that's where words are formed.
So when you're playing your bass in ultra-rumble mode, I can't tell one note from the next 50 feet away. So I'll use your DI signal to add that 1,000 to 5,000 Hz into your signal to make your notes pop out.
That being said, if a bass player walks in with a pedalboard full of distortion boxes I'll usually toss a mic on the cabinet because DI distortion sounds nasty.
Now everyone tell me I'm doing it wrong.
Then go mix bands for a month or two and get back to me on that.
You're doing it wrong if this is what you do in every situation!
This is where you are producing and changing the sound of the band. Your job is sound reinforcement
Those frequencies boosted will work great in some bands but NOT ALL.
when I am playing old school funk, rock n roll, reggae there is a reason I put on flats and foam under the bridge.
Some techs like to crank the highs and put heaps of sub frequencies on the bass and calls it done!
I would call the sound I give the sound tech mid focused and by no means rumbley and I have had compliments from just about every tech on my tone sitting well in the mix. That is post EQ, compressor, distortion coming from the DI on my amp
See, I'm doing it wrong.
Gee all those years of experience, training, study, refining my technique... boy, I'm sure glad you're here to tell me I'm wrong! Phew!! Thanks man. I'm sure your tone is perfect for every room, in every situation that you won't allow the sound guy to do his job which is TO MAKE YOU SOUND BETTER!!
Do you seriously think I'd crank the highs so much that I'd give you a punk/pick tone on your P-Bass with flats in a funk band?
The point is, not every sound guy is that dumb. Let us do our job.
Are there bad sound guys? Yeah. Are there stupid bass players that make sound guys pissed off? Yeah. Can we find a nice middle ground of mutual understanding? Apparently not.
I think I need a break from Talk Bass for awhile. This isn't as cool a place as it used to be.
