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sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

#281
jeffbonny said:
I can never understand how people so often fail to comprehend that the EQ they choose to get a particular sound through a purpose built bass cabinet on stage may have little to do with achieving a similar sound through a PA system. Especially if the cab is heavily voiced (as many are) and the PA is relatively flat. Obsessing over sending "your" EQ to front of house may well as you seem to point out be somewhat self defeating.
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This is actually true, but why is this argument never used in the case of guitar, when it is equally true for them? Somehow, all the problems and issues raised here by soundmen (many of them quite legitimate) fall by the wayside when a guitar is used and "somehow" they're able to make it work with guitarists and their amps and mics and pedals and FX and volume changes and tone changes and EQ changes, etc, etc.
 
#282
And in cases where my amp made a hum that ground lifting didn't get rid of, we swapped. I may want what I want, but I'm also practical and pragmatic. Not going to screw the show just because I want something that's not working correctly to be used. I'm just saying to try my thing first before you shoot it down out of hand, and if it doesn't work we'll do it your way. Takes all of 10 seconds to unplug from the amp and into a DI.
 
#283
Marcus Willett said:
This is actually true, but why is this argument never used in the case of guitar, when it is equally true for them? Somehow, all the problems and issues raised here by soundmen (many of them quite legitimate) fall by the wayside when a guitar is used and "somehow" they're able to make it work with guitarists and their amps and mics and pedals and FX and volume changes and tone changes and EQ changes, etc, etc.
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Wish I'd have said that instead of the pansy reply I gave him ;)
 
#284
Totally didn't take it that way, no worries.
Just, when you said you had a 10 hour session with an engineer on how to get a good DI sound, I expected the answer to be "more on engineering'' tech and not "how to be a good player" tech.
Everything he told you is certainly true, but, it's all stuff that applies to being a good player, period, and, nothing to do with any particular DI situation.
IMO, for what little that's worth!


Mushroo said:
Oh my, I wasn't dissing your playing. :) Just saying "I had a 10 hour private lesson with an engineer, and these are the specific things we worked on." As in, this is my personal experience which you specifically asked me to share. ;)
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#285
Yes, and, yes.


Marcus Willett said:
This is actually true, but why is this argument never used in the case of guitar, when it is equally true for them? Somehow, all the problems and issues raised here by soundmen (many of them quite legitimate) fall by the wayside when a guitar is used and "somehow" they're able to make it work with guitarists and their amps and mics and pedals and FX and volume changes and tone changes and EQ changes, etc, etc.
Click to expand...

JimmyM said:
And in cases where my amp made a hum that ground lifting didn't get rid of, we swapped. I may want what I want, but I'm also practical and pragmatic. Not going to screw the show just because I want something that's not working correctly to be used. I'm just saying to try my thing first before you shoot it down out of hand, and if it doesn't work we'll do it your way. Takes all of 10 seconds to unplug from the amp and into a DI.
Click to expand...
 
#286
Marcus Willett said:
This is actually true, but why is this argument never used in the case of guitar, when it is equally true for them? Somehow, all the problems and issues raised here by soundmen (many of them quite legitimate) fall by the wayside when a guitar is used and "somehow" they're able to make it work with guitarists and their amps and mics and pedals and FX and volume changes and tone changes and EQ changes, etc, etc.
Click to expand...

I'm quoting myself :D.

But seriously, I have never heard any argument in this or any other thread on this topic, where the reasons and rationales given for the "bass is best straight to DI" don't also apply to guitar. And yet without fail, the guitar will be accommodated as much as possible regardless of problems posed, and the bassist who asks for even a shred of that same consideration is either being difficult or ignorant.

Jeez it's just bass, you need GEAR to get your tone? ;)
 
#288
pbass2 said:
Are some of you guys actually changing settings on your bass amp during a set? Maybe I'm old-fashioned(or maybe have done too much soundman work myself;), but I would just never do that once I get the onstage sound dialed in, unless there's a problem like it becomes apparent I'm too loud onstage, lows need to roll off, etc. Of course I'll make song-dependent tonal changes on the bass and on my pedals, but on the amp--never.
The only exception I can recall is one tune on my last tour where I had to end with a bunch of feedback and THEN I would do it at the (mic'd)amp, but the FOH guy knew exactly when in the set it was going to happen. Then the settings went right back to where they were. (I also had a pedal set to give me a similar effect if the backline amp wasn't up to the feedback task)
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Amp, no. Bass? Yes. But if I didn't have the tools onboard via the bass' preamp I would, yes.
Some songs are slower and need a thicker more bassy sound. Some are much faster and require a more middy approach as a big fat really bassy tone would be useless through an OD/distortion/fuzz/modulation pedal, as you're not even going to be able to tell it's on. Especially being a 3 piece, how my bass changes to match the one guitar in my band makes a night and day difference, as it does in most 1 guitar/1 bass/drums bands, of which there are countless numbers out there.

FOTM is, at least to me, bass is much more difficult to make sound great live and recording than say guitar which is why I think anyway so many people just "one and done it" because they can't make it sounds as good as it could, so they scoff at the notion that we need "more than just a clean DI" and that should suffice. Just pure and simple laziness. That's why playing in bands where guitarists actually appreciate the difference in bass sound and tone is awesome bc they want everyone to sound great and mesh well. If I were in a band and the guitarist's tone totally didn't fit I'd tell him and suggest ways to fix it. I hope they'd do the same for me.
 
#289
ThisBass said:
That's a very confusing discussion
I deleted a post,
but as I told above probably DI is the most confusing gear to the "average" bass players imagine.
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Feel free to enlighten us. I would very much appreciate a list of all the reasons why it's (as a general rule) "better" to go straight to DI with bass, but only those reasons that do NOT apply to guitar. And please explain WHY those reasons (if any) apply to bass and only bass.

I'm being quite serious, I would love to see such a list.
 
#290
Chef said:
Totally didn't take it that way, no worries.
Just, when you said you had a 10 hour session with an engineer on how to get a good DI sound, I expected the answer to be "more on engineering'' tech and not "how to be a good player" tech.
Everything he told you is certainly true, but, it's all stuff that applies to being a good player, period, and, nothing to do with any particular DI situation.
IMO, for what little that's worth!
Click to expand...

Maybe the moral of the story is that it's the engineer's job to do the engineering, and the bassist's job to be a good player. :)
 
#291
Marcus Willett said:
This is actually true, but why is this argument never used in the case of guitar, when it is equally true for them? Somehow, all the problems and issues raised here by soundmen (many of them quite legitimate) fall by the wayside when a guitar is used and "somehow" they're able to make it work with guitarists and their amps and mics and pedals and FX and volume changes and tone changes and EQ changes, etc, etc.
Click to expand...

In theory (but not in practice I know) a mic on a cab should give you what's coming out of the cab only louder so there seems to be less room for discussion...it's a "here, make this louder" kinda thing. You can't make that assumption as easily with a DI where the signal from the bass needs to be EQ'ed for two separate speaker systems. The reality of a mic on a guitar though (and here I completely agree with you) is that I have in fact heard more than one soundman I've worked next to comment that the guitar sound sucked through FOH but it was what he was given and what he had to work with.
 
#292
jeffbonny said:
I can never understand how people so often fail to comprehend that the EQ they choose to get a particular sound through a purpose built bass cabinet on stage may have little to do with achieving a similar sound through a PA system. Especially if the cab is heavily voiced (as many are) and the PA is relatively flat. Obsessing over sending "your" EQ to front of house may well as you seem to point out be somewhat self defeating. I'd much rather send a signal with full harmonic content and let the FOH guy slot it in the mix without hamstringing him in any way...if he's good he'll know what to do and if he sucks it won't make much difference. I know I often need more upper mid out front to slot into a mix well vs what sounds good to me on stage. I choose to have faith that my choice of instrument, strings, DI and touch will put "my" sound out into the house.

As for not being able to mute while tuning put yer danged tuner in front of the DI. With 99.9% of stompbox tuners problem solved.
Click to expand...

Just like I can never understand how *some* soundmen can't understand that not all bassists can roll with one generic bass sound all night... In my own case, I give the guy my 5er for setting a bassline EQ - that gives us both a decent reference for starters, and the lowest I'm going to go all night... With all due respect, it doesn't sound like you cover the range of material I typically do in a given night(as a bassist)...

Regarding your input on tuners - I don't like to use pedals for the most part, and also don't like to have a tuner in my signal chain... I use a rack tuner(DTR-2000) most of the time, and prefer that - there is really no valid reason for it to be in my signal chain...


- georgestrings
 
#294
ThisBass said:
I needed the ground lift very often.
And that is very big benefit of Di because Ground Lift can be enabled all the time.
Sometimes I needed Ground Lift when I was doing the FOH mix at stage where everything is plugged into the same line socket.
I can't explain it to myself, but sometimes I needed Ground Lift to eliminate a 50Hz hum.
Click to expand...

If you needed to use a ground lift that often, the problem probably wasn't originating from the bass rig... I pretty much always DI, and the extremely rare times I've been asked to ground lift, the problem actually ended up being a cable, or channel issue - totally unrelated to my gear... Any decent amp with an onboard DI in the last 10 years or longer will have a ground lift, btw...


- georgestrings
 
#295
Mushroo said:
Maybe the moral of the story is that it's the engineer's job to do the engineering, and the bassist's job to be a good player. :)
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And maybe the moral of the story is if you want to be an engineer that musicians like to hire and recommend, maybe you shouldn't be so inflexible and obnoxious about the way you operate with bands.
 
#296
As a bassist and sound engineer heres my opinion...

D.I out of amp do sound better, and i always use it when I'm performing and doing my own bands sound

When I'm doing sound for another band, weather i use the amp DI out or a line straight from the bass depends on the band. If they're professional and have decent reliable looking gear i'll trust the bassists amp DI
However, with less professional bands i tend to avoid amp DI. Often because the amp may look unreliable and shoddy, the bassist may have a tone thats difficult to work with, and sometimes they'll start messing with their amp setting mid gig, which can be a pain in the arse.
 
#297
Marcus Willett said:
Feel free to enlighten us. I would very much appreciate a list of all the reasons why it's (as a general rule) "better" to go straight to DI with bass, but only those reasons that do NOT apply to guitar. And please explain WHY those reasons (if any) apply to bass and only bass.

I'm being quite serious, I would love to see such a list.
Click to expand...

There is no reason to run the signal DI dry onto FOH

FOH people are not dump, FOH people have an ability to speak some words which gives us the opportunity to get in conversation with them.

I don't remember that I had any problems with FOH folks.

There are only two possibilities available.
I will follow the FOH's imagine because it is best.
The FOH guy follows my imagine because it is best.

If I'm a well known for garbage bass sound probably the FOH consists to his imagine.
But if I'm a well known guy for ...
so probably the agreement is very different to the common rule which in general means the signal shall to be dry into FOH
I don't like that because I'm a well known guy for ...
 
#299
JimmyM said:
And maybe the moral of the story is if you want to be an engineer that musicians like to hire and recommend, maybe you shouldn't be so inflexible and obnoxious about the way you operate with bands.
Click to expand...

I have no desire to be an engineer, neither am I inflexible or obnoxious. I hope by "you" you were just generalizing. :)
 

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