sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

[georgestrings]

I'm not hearing much mutual understanding out of soundmen in this thread, bro. I'm hearing a lot of "I have determined that this is the best way, so if you're not directly paying me you can eat it if you disagree." Not everyone, but enough to make it the prevailing sentiment. And that's why I'm going to bolt this thread. Won't do any good anyway.

+1...


- georgestrings

 

[B-string]

As a bass player I do too.

But, man, you gotta put yourself in the shoes of a sound guy sometime. If you walk in with a P-Bass and a basic amp with no pedals I know I can dial your sound in in about 2 seconds.

If you walk in with a full effects board then I'll certainly be asking you questions about what we need to do.

But... if your drummer is late, and your singer is being a diva, and that clock is ticking and we're running late... I hate to say it because I'm a bass player too... but out comes the DI.

But I would bet if that bassist said to you: "Man I am sorry these guys are real tools. Could you try the DI from my head first, leave the box in case I need to switch it for you." You would take the chance and time.

 

[MonkeyBass]

The thing is, contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, the dude at the soundboard really does have your best interest in mind. With a few exceptions, granted.

And as I've stated, the sound guy has a lot more than just your bass sound to deal with. Drums, guitar, vocals, monitors, lights, staying on schedule, watching the SPL meter (did I mention the club owner gets fined if you play too loudly). So, often a DI takes a lot of guess work out of making your bass SOUND GOOD!! It's not being lazy, it's not a lack of caring, it's not discrimination, it's not trying to sabotage your tone... it's knowing what we can do, in the time we have, with the tools we have.

 

[Bob Gross]

Some sound use boxes and some don't. I really don't care. As far as tuning try a pedal such as a boss TU3. When you step on it, it mutes the sound to the amp.

 

[MonkeyBass]

But I would bet if that bassist said to you: "Man I am sorry these guys are real tools. Could you try the DI from my head first, leave the box in case I need to switch it for you." You would take the chance and time.

Absolutely!! Every single time!! I'd love that!!

 

[arai]

As a bass player I do too.

But, man, you gotta put yourself in the shoes of a sound guy sometime. If you walk in with a P-Bass and a basic amp with no pedals I know I can dial your sound in in about 2 seconds.

If you walk in with a full effects board then I'll certainly be asking you questions about what we need to do.

But... if your drummer is late, and your singer is being a diva, and that clock is ticking and we're running late... I hate to say it because I'm a bass player too... but out comes the DI.

While a agree, I still think it depends. What if the bass player has a quality amp that you know has a good DI. Can't you just say to him/her "I'll run your DI post EQ if you like but if there is a problem I'm going to ask you to click the pre switch, cool?"
That would take you a whole 30 seconds to say, probably less time then getting out the DI and a patch lead, and the bass player should be happy.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

The thing people have to realize too is that when you're one of 4 bands playing that night in one of those cattle call situations, I'm gonna give you a DI on your bass because I straight up don't have time to tweak a micked amp sound in the 15 minutes between bands. If I take too long, people get pissed. The crowd gets pissed, the bar tender gets pissed, the other bands get pissed, the club owner gets pissed...

As the sound guy I have to manage the schedule, which includes tracking your guitar player down when he's out in his car smoking a bowl, getting your lead singer to quit making out with his girlfriend, getting your drummer to hurry up and get his crap on stage, mic it all up, do a line check and get a sound dialed in after a song or two while your girlfriend offers me her expert mixing advise after the first 20 seconds. All while adjusting monitors, EQ's, balance, and running the lights.

So if a DI on your bass makes my life that much easier... guess what, you're getting a DI.

pretty much exactly.

I would add that when I have time for a decent sound check, or if I am doing several sets with the same band. I will try both mic and DI on the bass (and the guitar). I will even try different mics on the snare and toms, depending.
I guess some sound guys get lazy and lose the joy of doing live sound. It's a slippery slope from expediency to mediocrity.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

(did I mention the club owner gets fined if you play too loudly).

I agree with what you are saying except for this. Check with your state and local gov't as to if there are decibel limitations for your area. There is no limit in most states (this will change most likely in due time).
I find a di no quicker to dial in than a mic. Edit- except in the case where the di needs to be ground lifted and I have to run back to the stage. Then a mic is quicker. I'll use whatever the player wants, no matter how crappy (or good) their preference might be. Both is a good idea, usually one independent from the amp (once you have an amp die on you mid song and the pa is still out there kicking you will know why a lot of guys like an independent di. It's not for tone, or speed but for reliability reasons).

 

[MonkeyBass]

While a agree, I still think it depends. What if the bass player has a quality amp that you know has a good DI. Can't you just say to him/her "I'll run your DI post EQ if you like but if there is a problem I'm going to ask you to click the pre switch, cool?"
That would take you a whole 30 seconds to say, probably less time then getting out the DI and a patch lead, and the bass player should be happy.

Yep!!! Totally would do that.

 

[B-string]

Absolutely!! Every single time!! I'd love that!!

And that will be my final point. A little respect and teamwork will make everyone's night a lot easier, happier and you all will sound better in the end. It is really not much to ask from one human to another.

 

[arai]

like

 

[MonkeyBass]

I agree with what you are saying except for this. Check with your state and local gov't as to if there are decibel limitations for your area. There is no limit in most states (this will change most likely in due time).
I find a di no quicker to dial in than a mic. Edit- except in the case where the di needs to be ground lifted and I have to run back to the stage. Then a mic is quicker. I'll use whatever the player wants, no matter how crappy (or good) their preference might be. Both is a good idea, usually one independent from the amp (once you have an amp die on you mid song and the pa is still out there kicking you will know why a lot of guys like an independent di. It's not for tone, or speed but for reliability reasons).

No... I've had the cops come up to the board and order me to turn it down. Trust me, we have a noise ordinance.

Look guys, this is the point, in the room I work I know how the bass responds, in my room micking the amp is tricky. In my room a reliable DI works better. IN MY ROOM. So trust me to dial in the sound with my board, in my room, with my gear that I use all the time. And, in return, I promise not to jack with your basic tone.

Mutual respect. That's all I ask.

 

[MonkeyBass]

And that will be my final point. A little respect and teamwork will make everyone's night a lot easier, happier and you all will sound better in the end. It is really not much to ask from one human to another.

And that, my friend, is my point too. Enough bashing-the-sound-guy threads. It's pointless, it's meaningless, it's counter productive.

 

[arai]

I think on a forum a lot gets lost in translation.
People may seem difficult on here but if we were working together at a gig a lot of the disagreement would be sorted out in a more then civil manner. Most people are reasonable face to face

 

[two fingers]

The thing is, contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, the dude at the soundboard really does have your best interest in mind. With a few exceptions, granted.

And as I've stated, the sound guy has a lot more than just your bass sound to deal with. Drums, guitar, vocals, monitors, lights, staying on schedule, watching the SPL meter (did I mention the club owner gets fined if you play too loudly). So, often a DI takes a lot of guess work out of making your bass SOUND GOOD!! It's not being lazy, it's not a lack of caring, it's not discrimination, it's not trying to sabotage your tone... it's knowing what we can do, in the time we have, with the tools we have.

I'm with you to a point. But many have just gotten used to what they know. Many simply don't feel like trying to work with a line out signal before having the conversation. In a situation where there are several bands playing on one stage I can see your point. But, as a sound guy myself, there's really no reason why there can't be at least a quick trial run using the line out, and then a few seconds to negotiate if that signal is something that doesn't sit in a mix well. I understand that we don't have all day. But I have done enough shows to know that the whole process of line level checks, getting everyone what they need in the monitors, and running a song to mix only takes 10 minutes in most cases (unless there's a problem with something). 11 or 12 minutes won't kill anyone.

Try the line out signal if it's that important to the guy. If that doesn't work, TALK to each other. End of story. If everyone gives a little, then everyone will get most of what they want. I use the line out on my Mesa rig, or speaker level DI from my V4. But I also ask the sound guy EVERY TIME if what I am sending him is something he can work with. Usually, it's fine. But if it's not, he'll usually ask me to knock a little bit off the bottom so he can sit me in the low mid spot in the mix. I tweek one knob a notch or two and we're off to a good start. Mutual respect gets you further than "I am a rock God and I want....." or "I am a sound guy guru and you will bow to my every whim!" If both come at it with a "What can we do to make this work?" attitude, things get done and nobody gets mad.

But, again, none of this is getting solved here. Everybody has their arms crossed and foreheads wrinkled.

 

[two fingers]

But I would bet if that bassist said to you: "Man I am sorry these guys are real tools. Could you try the DI from my head first, leave the box in case I need to switch it for you." You would take the chance and time.

This.

 

[sweetwillyp]

I use a Sansamp RBI and give them the 50/50 XLR ... I have never had a problem and most high level Pro engineers are Happy that I have a Sansamp.. Some guys like to Mic..Whichever is great with me because I have EQ'ed my DI and My Cabs to sound identical

 

[JimmyM]

Huh? How?

To be honest I'm sorta getting the same vibe from you Jimmy. With all due respect.

I'm hearing "my bass tone is my tone and the sound guy/engineer is wrong".

Actually, if I'm screwing the pooch, I want to know about it and I'll try to fix it.

 

[MonkeyBass]

I'm with you to a point. But many have just gotten used to what they know. Many simply don't feel like trying to work with a line out signal before having the conversation. In a situation where there are several bands playing on one stage I can see your point. But, as a sound guy myself, there's really no reason why there can't be at least a quick trial run using the line out, and then a few seconds to negotiate if that signal is something that doesn't sit in a mix well. I understand that we don't have all day. But I have done enough shows to know that the whole process of line level checks, getting everyone what they need in the monitors, and running a song to mix only takes 10 minutes in most cases (unless there's a problem with something). 11 or 12 minutes won't kill anyone.

Try the line out signal if it's that important to the guy. If that doesn't work, TALK to each other. End of story. If everyone gives a little, then everyone will get most of what they want. I use the line out on my Mesa rig, or speaker level DI from my V4. But I also ask the sound guy EVERY TIME if what I am sending him is something he can work with. Usually, it's fine. But if it's not, he'll usually ask me to knock a little bit off the bottom so he can sit me in the low mid spot in the mix. I tweek one knob a notch or two and we're off to a good start. Mutual respect gets you further than "I am a rock God and I want....." or "I am a sound guy guru and you will bow to my every whim!" If both come at it with a "What can we do to make this work?" attitude, things get done and nobody gets mad.

But, again, none of this is getting solved here. Everybody has their arms crossed and foreheads wrinkled.

I'm in 100% agreement.

I really hope I'm not coming across as hard headed or not willing to listen.

Guys, trust me, I try to do what I can with the time I have.

About 75% of the bands I deal with are totally cool people. They get there on time, they talk to me, they treat me well, they say thank you, sometimes they'll even buy me a beer. But... that remaining 25% are the ones I guess I'm using to make the point. Soundcheck at 7:00, doors at 8:30. Drummer shows up at 8:25, bassist at 8:20, lead singer 8:35. DI the amp and set up 8 mics on the drums to get the band a basic line check before the crowd comes in? Uh... yeah, sorry but if your band can't keep a schedule, I'm not putting in the time.

Mutual respect.

See my point?

 

[MonkeyBass]

Actually, if I'm screwing the pooch, I want to know about it and I'll try to fix it.

I'm not sure you're screwing the pooch Jimmy, I just don't understand how you're coming to the conclusion you are.

Could you please elaborate? I'm an open minded guy and I'm really enjoying this conversation. I feel it's an important one.