sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

[MonkeyBass]

I disagree. Chuck Berry is an icon. Accept no imitations.

You hire Chuck Berry because you want Chuck Berry, so let Chuck Berry be Chuck Berry and keep your greasy mitts off of his knobs.

If Chuck Berry doesn't work out quite the way you imagined, there's always Little Richard. Hmmm: Little Richard vs. Keith Richards.

True...

But the engineer should know if his amp sounds bad in the recording. It's hard to tell in the video if it was the engineer or Keith that messed with his knobs. But you gotta admit Chuck flew off the handle a bit.

The whole point I think we're trying to make here is that open communication is the key. The engineer and the musicians shouldn't be enemies. Trust each other to get the job done right.

 

[KJung]

Well put.

+1 The other 'dirty little secret' that many of those who try to cram something down an engineer's throat is that he (or she) still has control of the knobs

So bassists REALLY think that if they force a sound person to do what he/she doesn't want to do, that magically, the sound person will 'give you the tone that you want versus what he/she feels sounds good in the mix?



I again have never had an issue (I prefer a pre EQ signal from the back of my amp for simplicity) with a sound person in 40 years of playing. As soon as they hear the magic words 'pre EQ', all but the worst realize that the send from the amp will be virtually identical to a relatively neutral DI like a Countryman, JDI, etc. I have run into some terrible front of house situations, but me screaming about a different send from the stage wouldn't have made anything any better.

 

[BurningSkies]

Nothing is pre-eq if you're using an active bass.

 

[KJung]

Nothing is pre-eq if you're using an active bass.

Well, nothing is pre EQ if you vary your hand position either However, a pre EQ DI on an amp is pretty much identical to most stand-alone DI's. I have never had a sound person have trouble with either getting a great sound out of one, or having a 'conceptual' problem with it.

The primary concern of sound professionals with post EQ DI's is level issues, and of course, extreme EQ given the stage acoustics (often awful) and cab/head matching.

Everyone should do what they want, and it seems that some players get enjoyment out of battling with front of house guys. I luckily enjoy a reasonably clean, full range tone that seems to be easily achieved with a pre EQ buffered send from my various amps. Of course, if a certain front of house tech has a very different idea of what a bass should sound like, nothing is going to help. He/she will make your $1,000 DI or your $500 mic, or your 'post EQ so that you get your sound' sound exactly like he/she wants!

Also, your point is a good one in general. I play a passive bass. However, if you have an active bass, then you have a situation of a pre (on-board) feeding a pre (amp) feeding a pre (board). That is typically not a good thing on many, many levels!

 

[Chef]

I don't use much eq at the amp; so, I've never had any problems reported from sound techs when sending them post eq.

I also generally say "I'm gonna send you post eq first, but if that feels problematic, I can switch to pre eq super easy; it's one button."

 

[KJung]

I don't use much eq at the amp; so, I've never had any problems reported from sound techs when sending them post eq.

I also generally say "I'm gonna send you post eq first, but if that feels problematic, I can switch to pre eq super easy; it's one button."

+1 That will work also. You would never have a problem with that.

The best 'sound man' story I have is when one guy sheepishly came up to me on a large corporate gig while I was setting up, and asked me if he could take a DI from the Glockenklang HeartRock I was using at the time instead of the direct box he had set up for me. He said he always wanted to hear one!

 

[Chef]

Me too!

 

[MonkeyBass]

I don't use much eq at the amp; so, I've never had any problems reported from sound techs when sending them post eq.

I also generally say "I'm gonna send you post eq first, but if that feels problematic, I can switch to pre eq super easy; it's one button."

Spoken like a real pro!!

 

[Chef]

I like getting along with sound guys.
I play many of the same clubs, frequently, and having a solid working relationship with them is mutually beneficial in many ways.

 

[BurningSkies]

90% of soundmen don't ask if your amp sends post/pre. I've hardly ever been asked the question since starting gigging in the 1980's. Sometimes a don't ask, don't tell policy works out best.

I liked that my Kern IP-777's DI had not only a lift but also a phase switch, although seldom used. I also like that both my Monique and the Kern have line out and DI out volumes on the front. Which allows me to say "let me know if that's too much or too little level for you, and I can adjust the send".

 

[Chef]

I agree, many sound guys haven't asked me "pre or post," which is partly why I tell them, since I'd rather send post, if it works for them.
But, telling them I'm sending them post, and telling them if the post eq signal is one they don't like/want to work with I can easily switch to pre is helpful info, and, indicates willingness on my end to be flexible.

 

[KJung]

90% of soundmen don't ask if your amp sends post/pre. I've hardly ever been asked the question since starting gigging in the 1980's. Sometimes a don't ask, don't tell policy works out best.

I liked that my Kern IP-777's DI had not only a lift but also a phase switch, although seldom used. I also like that both my Monique and the Kern have line out and DI out volumes on the front. Which allows me to say "let me know if that's too much or too little level for you, and I can adjust the send".

On all but the most low end board, signal level is a moot point. Any decent board can handle any signal level.

I guess we are dealing with different levels of front of house guy. I've rarely NOT been asked about pre/post EQ in all these decades of doing this (often phrased as 'that is OK as long as nothing you are doing on stage impacts the send).

Again, many ways to skin this cat. It is pretty easy to avoid 'drama', even with very different approaches to what type of signal you send to the board.

 

[KJung]

I agree, many sound guys haven't asked me "pre or post," which is partly why I tell them, since I'd rather send post, if it works for them.
But, telling them I'm sending them post, and telling them if the post eq signal is one they don't like/want to work with I can easily switch to pre is helpful info, and, indicates willingness on my end to be flexible.

Exactly. Kind of lets them know are aren't clueless of the issues.

 

[Chef]

Agreed!

On all but the most low end board, signal level is a moot point. Any decent board can handle any signal level.

It is pretty easy to avoid 'drama', even with very different approaches to what type of signal you send to the board.

 

[MonkeyBass]

Wow this is so refreshing to hear some seasoned vets talk about treating the sound guy with respect. So often it's the opposite on these TB boards.

Like I said, 75% of the bands I work with are totally cool. They listen to me when I make suggestions, I listen to them when they make requests, it's a great time.

It's that 25% that think they're entitled, or that you're their slave, or that you it's up to you to corral them onto stage, or that you have no idea how to run a mixing board, or that you're there to sabotage their sound... those are the people that seem to post on TB threads.

 

[Mushroo]

Bass playing and sound reinforcement are both "support functions." We are the employees of, and serve at the pleasure of, the paying audience.

 

[Chef]

Man, there's just no reason to ever have that kind of attitude, IMO.
Even if you feel "like you know more than the sound guy," being nice is gonna get you where you want to go easier.

 

[RustyAxe]

They are just lazy and know their own box. Tell them they have two choices: 1) Use the DI from your amp head. 2) Mike your speaker cab.

Yep. I was involved in a video taping for a local cable access channel on Sunday (same day the OP posted, coincidentally). The "sound guys" were lacking, to say the least. They put a SM58 in front of each of two HUGE PA bins, poorly placed on a ledge about 10 feet above the floor. Yeah. Fixed location, house speakers. No idea who thought that was a good placement! Mics were pointed at the lower right quadrant of the 15" bass cone, and nowhere near the tweeter/horn. Mistake #1 ... to get a decent tone on the tape they boosted the highs and mids in the room ... and it sounded awful live, and not a whole lot better in the recorded mix. Three guys worked together to get such a craptastic sound. Then 15 minutes to EQ the acoustic guitar. All the time I'm tellin' them that my bass will not be heard in the recorded mix since they weren't running my bass through the FOH (where they were mic'ing). I told him I could give him DI, pre or post EQ, line level or mic level, and had a ground lift if I needed it. Nothin' but a blank stare and a tentative nod. I finally ran an XLR from my head's DI, preEQ, to the board and handed him his end. He looked dumbfounded. So I plugged it in, set a rough EQ, waited for him to sound check the bass. Nothin' ... he was busy chatting with a guy who wasn't even in the show. Booming feedback ... I was using a Tacoma Thunderchief acoustic bass guitar, a boomy beast under ideal conditions, but I always manage to get it to sound very much like an upright bass (what I'm aiming for) without difficulty. The "sound man" didn't know what knob to twiddle and shrugged. I finally threw a minor hissy fit ... and loudly said, "I'm not gonna sit here and play for the next hour if no one's gonna hear me" ... and started to pack up my stuff. Then remembered my emergency gig kit was in the car. I pulled out a SM57, mic'd the cab, and set up my own sound at the board. I finally got what I wanted, but had to do it myself. What a PITA.

I should mention that we weren't recording bands, but rather solo singer/songwriters, and I happened to be playing bass for three of 'em. The sound check should have been 15-20 minutes, tops ... but took over an hour. I should also say that this isn't my usual experience with professional sound guys. I suppose the amateur cable access volunteers have to start somewhere, but man, it was frustrating!

 

[Chef]

Aye!!!!!!!

I just had this talk with a bandmate.

It's nice to "have fun" playing music, and, indeed, it should be fun!
But: you're getting paid, just like the guy flipping burgers at McD's.

So; bring a professional attitude to work that respects the club owner, and the people who are paying you.

Paying you to show up, be present and have fun!!!!

Bass playing and sound reinforcement are both "support functions." We are the employees of, and serve at the pleasure of, the paying audience.

 

[BurningSkies]

On all but the most low end board, signal level is a moot point. Any decent board can handle any signal level.

I guess we are dealing with different levels of front of house guy. I've rarely NOT been asked about pre/post EQ in all these decades of doing this (often phrased as 'that is OK as long as nothing you are doing on stage impacts the send).

Again, many ways to skin this cat. It is pretty easy to avoid 'drama', even with very different approaches to what type of signal you send to the board.

I've played everything from no PA gigs to big rooms like 9.30 in DC and the old Limelight in NYC, and festival stages. Classic smaller rooms like El Mocambo in Toronto, Lion's Den, SOB's, the Cooler, etc. in NYC, the Paradise (Boston), Nectar's in VT, etc.

I've still on only VERY rare occasions had anyone ask pre/post EQ.

I agree that almost all soundmen can work the levels correctly from the board. I still offer. You know in the spirit of getting along.