sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

[AngelCrusher]

I like getting along with sound guys.
I play many of the same clubs, frequently, and having a solid working relationship with them is mutually beneficial in many ways.

When I was local, I worked with sound guys..national, had my own, and then at some points, to help bars start a live music venue I have been a soundguy.

If every player was like you, life would be gravy.

The worst way to go about things is to be high strung and antsy - especially as a local artist.

I see some bands come in that are nervous or irritable for whatever reason and they make demands..etc. It is the best way to get a bad rep real fast. Sound guys that are decent know everyone in town and word spreads fast.

There is no need to fear the soundguy or let him give you a bad tone either. The secret is to really know your stuff and clearly communicate with that guy so he knows you are cool and know what you are doing.

The facts are that the majority of bass players in local bands that I have heard have a crappy tone that usually consists of too many lows or too many highs. Many play too loud, have hissy equipment..etc.

Anywa, to overcome this bias, just be cool. Be relaxed..know your stuff and know how to communicate with people. If it is a 3 band or more show, there is a ton of stress coming from the sound guys angle and you need to acknowledge that and make things as smooth as possible. He may only have time for 1 line check so you better understand that and have a better option that will work on the first try.

If you can pull that off, you will get what you want. Trust me. I have been playing this game for years and the majority of being successful in music is simply being good with people.

 

[KJung]

I've played everything from no PA gigs to big rooms like 9.30 in DC and the old Limelight in NYC, and festival stages. Classic smaller rooms like El Mocambo in Toronto, Lion's Den, SOB's, the Cooler, etc. in NYC, the Paradise (Boston), Nectar's in VT, etc.

I've still on only VERY rare occasions had anyone ask pre/post EQ.

I agree that almost all soundmen can work the levels correctly from the board. I still offer. You know in the spirit of getting along.

+1 Just asking if 'the level is OK' is a VERY good way to let the sound person know you are 'on the team' and that you are making sure he knows that you will work with him. +1 all the way. Amazing how easy it is to avoid drama, no matter what approach you take to your direct send/mic'ing, etc.

Also helps to have a decent instrument in good condition, and decent chops/approach to the instrument. I don't think I've ever taken longer than about 15 seconds for my part of the sound check! That helps a lot also. I've seen guys up there with pedals buzzing, massive stage volume, instruments that have grounding problems, clacky/sloppy technique, etc. That can make a sound person crazy!

Again, +1, easy to avoid drama and have a good night IMO and IME!

 

[leomonster1973]

The Coutnryman is nice.
Heck, the DI on the Redhead is nice.

Wasn't the D.I. on the red head pretty much the POINT of the Red Head when it was developed?

 

[topcat2069]

Yeah... it was part of the reason I got the SWR ST220 and retired my Countryman DI

 

[BlackThursday]

Despite some different perspectives and the typical misunderstandings, it seems that just about everyone here is on the same sheet of music. It’s refreshing to learn that so many TB members have significant experience as players and sound engineers. If the OP has taken the time to sift through all of the replies, he has undoubtedly gained some useful knowledge and insight that might come in handy later.

Those who play bass guitar learn about amplification from the get-go. It’s part of the instrument. I typically play double bass (occasionally doubling on bg) in groups that feature both electric and non-electric instruments. Often the other non-electric players are accomplished professionals but have little experience doing amplified live shows (and sometimes it's a friend of the band who just happened to have played cello in high school). Pickups, stage mic’ing, monitors, EQ, DI, are to them an alien world of tedious technical complexity. Meanwhile, these instruments present real challenges for engineers, especially those who rarely encounter them.

These situations offer an opportunity to share some knowledge and experience with other players unfamiliar with amplification, to help them get comfortable with, and get good sound from, the gear. And help them know what to expect when they go onstage with a rock band in a raucous club of yahoos instead of a string quartet in a recital hall filled with silver-haired matrons. Many times I find myself serving as a liaison between the band and the sound techs, providing advanced warning about what to expect along with the usual plot/input list. With less experienced engineers I try to be helpful when things aren’t going well, depending on the receptiveness of the individual to such helpfulness.

What about you? Since TB has so many members with extensive experience on both ends of the wire, how often do you find yourself in a situation that calls for a little technical mentoring/helpfulness? Have your efforts been well received? Were other musicians and/or engineers able to successfully implement your suggestions on an ongoing basis?

 

[bigchiefbc]

Look guys, this is the point, in the room I work I know how the bass responds, in my room micking the amp is tricky. In my room a reliable DI works better. IN MY ROOM. So trust me to dial in the sound with my board, in my room, with my gear that I use all the time. And, in return, I promise not to jack with your basic tone.

Mutual respect. That's all I ask.

This sounds reasonable, but what if my "basic tone" is impossible to achieve with a DI, period? At 80% of my band's gigs, we run our own sound with our own PA. At those gigs, I mic my cab, because I use a low wattage tube amp cranked up into overdrive for most of the set.

At the other 20% of the gigs, I explain my situation to the sound guy, and tell him, "I have my own mic, just tell me which cable to plug into it" About half of them are cool with it, other half complain. It seems inconceivable to them that I don't WANT a clean straight bass signal. That's not the sound we've developed as a band. It doesn't sound good with what we play.

But the problem is that a lot of people think that there is an "objectively good and acceptable bass tone", which to me is quite arrogant.

 

[jaywa]

About 80% of the gigs I play in the course of a given year are with our own, self-operated P.A... so the point is moot. We work together as a band to get a good (and not overly loud) sound on stage that also translates well to the house. BTW that means a good BAND sound... not each member dialing in whatever tone they particularly like solo. For example, I don't take bass solos so I never soundcheck my bass on its own... it's always while playing with the drums because THAT's the sound that has to be dialed-in.

Now on the gigs where we have production provided, my standard practice is to pro-actively offer the DI on my combo amp to the soundguy. At only one venue has that offer ever been declined and that was on a multi-band bill with quick changeovers so I just went with it. The thing is, the DI on my combo is post-EQ only so after we've done a line check and a quick band run-through, the first thing I ask the sound guy is if my EQ is messing things up for him. Usually there's no issue but a couple of times they've asked me to roll off some lows and/or add more highs which I do without comment or complaint until they're happy. I don't like having my playing "buried in the mud" any more than a competent sound guy likes hearing it that way so of course I'll work with him... even if it comes at the expense of my onstage sound.

Occasionally I'll run into a FOH guy where I just know from the get-go we're gonna have issues... for example, casino gigs where no bass at all is still "too loud"... but those are thankfully very rare and I can play the gig knowing I did what I could to meet him in the middle. In general I've found that a cooperative and collaborative attitude is returned in kind and results in a better end product and more enjoyable gig for everyone.

 

[Yango]

Reminds me of the "soundman" who told me musicians shouldn't play dynamically... that was his job.

I'm not sure what playing dynamically has to do with someone cranking up their entire EQ (which happens to be feeding the PA) because they can't hear themselves...

Playing dynamically is perfectly normal, but blowing a mix out of the water midsong is not cool.

Maybe I'm missing something here...

 

[Marcus Willett]

...someone cranking up their entire EQ (which happens to be feeding the PA) because they can't hear themselves...Playing dynamically is perfectly normal, but blowing a mix out of the water midsong is not.

Maybe I'm missing something here...

I think perhaps you are. As far as I can tell, no one here has suggested doing any such thing. And regardless of disagreements about the role of soudmen or appropriate bass tones, I think everyone here is in agreement such behavior would be juvenile.

 

[1n3]

I'm not sure what playing dynamically has to do with someone cranking up their entire EQ (which happens to be feeding the PA) because they can't hear themselves...

Playing dynamically is perfectly normal, but blowing a mix out of the water midsong is not cool.

Maybe I'm missing something here...

This guy thought that we should all play at a constant volume. He would turn us up and down as needed. I was on the treble side, doing fills and solos, the former more quietly than the latter. He didn't like that.

Stating the obvious, playing dynamically is an important part of music. So is changing tonality. I change hand placement, and pickup mix. But I use passive basses, and I also change tone on my amp - usually mids, but sometimes bass or treble. So I want a post-EQ feed.

You originally referred to "a bass player up there feeding his EQ to the PA, and changing his settings as the night goes on". That sounds legit to me... as legit as playing dynamically.

If there's a real technical issue, such as overloading an input, or too much sub-level content, that's different. But if you're just substituting your musical judgment for mine, I'm not cool with that. I probably wouldn't go "Chuck Berry" on you, but I'd want to. (thanks for that example, Jimmy)

I think much of the passion here is about defending musical turf. Where roles overlap, there's trouble.

 

[lfmn16]

But the problem is that a lot of people think that there is an "objectively good and acceptable bass tone", which to me is quite arrogant.

+1000

I don't know how this obvious statement is overlooked in every bass player vs. sound man thread. Why does the BASS PLAYER not get to determine what he sounds like? It seems to me that the sound man should determine how to get the sound that the bass player wants - and please don't bring up the obvious point that it can't happen in 100% of all cases; let's stick to the vast majority of situations. What if the bass player likes a nice deep, fat, bassy sound and the sound man likes a lot of midrange? Or vice versa?

 

[KCaruso]

Tell the sound man he either has to use a Radial brand Direct Box or your instruments direct out. He probably won't have the very high quality and high cost Radial, which all of the pro house sound companies use and the top bassplayers rep. This should put him in his place and he should respond, "ok we will use your out". If he says your output is too low make him prove it in the sound check. If he has a Radial, use it!

 

[AngelCrusher]

+1000

I don't know how this obvious statement is overlooked in every bass player vs. sound man thread. Why does the BASS PLAYER not get to determine what he sounds like? It seems to me that the sound man should determine how to get the sound that the bass player wants - and please don't bring up the obvious point that it can't happen in 100% of all cases; let's stick to the vast majority of situations. What if the bass player likes a nice deep, fat, bassy sound and the sound man likes a lot of midrange? Or vice versa?

Thats not really common. House Sound guys don't have a specific tone they want. It is more about gain structure and how hot the signal is coming from you. Many DI's out of the back of an amp are way too hot. The gain is cranked..soundguy has no time to adjust your volume and instead uses his own option.

To get past a lot of this stuff, I'd strongly suggest a sansamp DI. You just eq it how you want and then have the sound guy plug an XLR into it.

Personally I am happy with how my basses sound direct. I do all my sessions through a basic DI and get tones that way. If you can't get your bass to sound killer through a DI, that is going to be an issue. Some of the greatest tones in recorded history are DI'd.

Bass is a really simple instrument to make sound amazing if you have the hands.

 

[Marcus Willett]

"the problem is that a lot of people think that there is an "objectively good and acceptable bass tone"

Exactly, and what I have said for years. The notion that the soundmans' idea of what the bass should sound like is presumptively correct is based on this notion that there is a "correct", quantifiable way a bass is supposed to sound. Any deviation from this is an aberration, and may be tolerated but is not correct.

 

[AngelCrusher]

Tell the sound man he either has to use a Radial brand Direct Box or your instruments direct out. He probably won't have the very high quality and high cost Radial, which all of the pro house sound companies use and the top bassplayers rep. This should put him in his place and he should respond, "ok we will use your out". If he says your output is too low make him prove it in the sound check. If he has a Radial, use it!

Thats the worst attitude to have though.

First off, it's not going to put anyone in their place. It's just going to make you look foolish as the countryman is more standard anyway.

Don't try and put someone in their place. That is the worst attitude to bring.

 

[agedhorse]

Exactly, and what I have said for years. The notion that the soundmans' idea of what the bass should sound like is presumptively correct is based on this notion that there is a "correct", quantifiable way a bass is supposed to sound. Any deviation from this is an aberration, and may be tolerated but is not correct.

There are many "correct" bass tones. It's up to you to explain or demonstrate what you are trying to achieve as well as the sound guy to listen to what you are trying to do by listening to your amp before assuming what it should sound like. Sometimes I find myself walking around a bit to listen to a bass, gtr, sax, etc before bringing it up in the PA. If I see a player struggling with trying to get what's in his head, I might try a few things while having him listen (especially if he's wireless) or with the band leader's help at FOH. It really depends, there is no single approach that will always work. That's why we (or at least some of us) have the tools we have out at FOH.

On the other hand, I have seen sound guys just try too damn hard and end up making a mess out of something that's 90% of the way there. Sometimes it's better to go with 90% and move on with bigger issues than mess with pretty darn good and maybe go backwards.

 

[Marcus Willett]

there is no single approach that will always work.

Agreed 100%

 

[Ryan L.]

Occasionally I'll run into a FOH guy where I just know from the get-go we're gonna have issues... for example, casino gigs where no bass at all is still "too loud"... but those are thankfully very rare and I can play the gig knowing I did what I could to meet him in the middle. In general I've found that a cooperative and collaborative attitude is returned in kind and results in a better end product and more enjoyable gig for everyone.

Watertown, SD, casino, by chance?

 

[JLS]

I let soundfolk know that I am an oldschool, flatwounds, fingerstyle player, and that I'm not trying to be a piano or big guitar. If they can't deal with that, I don't go into FOH. The band I play with likes me loud & punchy onstage, which doesn't bother me a bit!

 

[1n3]

There are many "correct" bass tones. It's up to you to explain or demonstrate what you are trying to achieve as well as the sound guy to listen to what you are trying to do by listening to your amp before assuming what it should sound like. Sometimes I find myself walking around a bit to listen to a bass, gtr, sax, etc before bringing it up in the PA. If I see a player struggling with trying to get what's in his head, I might try a few things while having him listen (especially if he's wireless) or with the band leader's help at FOH. It really depends, there is no single approach that will always work. That's why we (or at least some of us) have the tools we have out at FOH.

On the other hand, I have seen sound guys just try too damn hard and end up making a mess out of something that's 90% of the way there. Sometimes it's better to go with 90% and move on with bigger issues than mess with pretty darn good and maybe go backwards.

You sound like my ideal FOH guy. I might not be your ideal bassist, but I think we'd do fine together. And yes - players have their responsibilities too.