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sound guy ignoring direct out on amp
- Thread starter remainthesame
- Start date
- Jan 27, 2010
- 4,141
- 471
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Genz Benz Amplification
We've got a "house gig" this week at a club in Georgia. Kind of a cool place, but a little awkward as well. The owner runs sound, and he's not the most knowledgable as far as the tech goes, but hey, he owns the place, and he signs the check.
The split of responsibilities is that we bring mics, cables, and backline, they provide FOH and monitors. 95% of our gigs we provide everything, so we're always a little skeptical about someone else running sound. They just won't know us as well as we know us.
Three nights in it hasn't been perfect, we've had a few minor hiccups, but the first thing I said when we walked was that we don't get our feelings hurt easily, if you need us to change something just tell us. That set things off on the right foot, and we've had a few nights of working well together, the owner's happy, and they're starting to get us dialed in like we're used to.
I could have gone in with an attitude and created a hostile situation, but instead I chose to be flexible and meet the crew where they're used to being, and that's absolutely the right approach. Sometimes giving an inch gains you a mile.
The split of responsibilities is that we bring mics, cables, and backline, they provide FOH and monitors. 95% of our gigs we provide everything, so we're always a little skeptical about someone else running sound. They just won't know us as well as we know us.
Three nights in it hasn't been perfect, we've had a few minor hiccups, but the first thing I said when we walked was that we don't get our feelings hurt easily, if you need us to change something just tell us. That set things off on the right foot, and we've had a few nights of working well together, the owner's happy, and they're starting to get us dialed in like we're used to.
I could have gone in with an attitude and created a hostile situation, but instead I chose to be flexible and meet the crew where they're used to being, and that's absolutely the right approach. Sometimes giving an inch gains you a mile.
Even if you were so inclined where a $10 tip is uber cheezy and kinda insulting a $10 shot of something seriously premium will say thank you loud and clear. And this happens AFTER the guy did right by you not as coercion just to do his ****ing job.
He started it!
Actually, I agree. Most of the time it's easily solved. I've had times where a soundman has said to me that he couldn't get anything but 100-125 in the house when I was micng my amp, and I lowered the bass knob a little and it was fine. It's all about being a professional and not taking every little criticism to heart. But had he demanded we pull the mic and use his Whirlwind Director DI instead, then that might have caused a rift. Instead, he came to me like a man, I responded like a man, and made the show pop together. That's what you do.
Absolutely - albeit rare, but occasionally I'll have a soundman ask me to cut some lows, because they're causing a problem - and of course I'd want that to be cleared up... This is one of those times that wireless shines - I can see what he's talking about for myself, if I have any doubts... I've worked with pretty much all the soundmen in my area at one time or another - and have a very cordial relationship with all the good ones - the few I've had problems with either aren't in the biz any more, or don't work my gigs...
- georgestrings
Agreed - it's not impossible to be polite and professional, while remaining firm in what you need to get your job done properly... I've also found that having quality gear in good working condition, and coming off like you actually know what you're doing will help to start a cooperative working relationship...
- georgestrings
respect is better than attitude....
let em know that you want what they want.... the best show possible.....
example of bad.... I was in a Band that played medleys, not one full song and no stopping for the whole set.... I used a Boss GT 10B to approximate the tone of the originals (everything from Pinball Wizard to Take My Breath Away type tones). WE got a job at one of the "Hot" places in town. I needed to direct my FX setup through the PA. The house had a back-line and even though the cab was junk the head was the same brand I use. I sound checked and sat down for dinner. As we were playing our show I could hear through the PA that my Bass was very "same-y sounding. I turned around and saw that the sound-man had changed my "FX direct to pre FX" so all the 30 or so patches that I used for our show were on stage only. Yeah I was pissed. The show was recorded live and the recording that we got was horrible, the sound man, who had never heard our show was "mixing", ex. during "Game Of Love" he turned me way up like the intro was a solo or something.... I guess that the people in the audience didn't know, but what he did still diminished our sound rather then "reenforcing" it. I think the guitar player would have beat the s*#t out of the guy if me had done similar to his sound.
let em know that you want what they want.... the best show possible.....
example of bad.... I was in a Band that played medleys, not one full song and no stopping for the whole set.... I used a Boss GT 10B to approximate the tone of the originals (everything from Pinball Wizard to Take My Breath Away type tones). WE got a job at one of the "Hot" places in town. I needed to direct my FX setup through the PA. The house had a back-line and even though the cab was junk the head was the same brand I use. I sound checked and sat down for dinner. As we were playing our show I could hear through the PA that my Bass was very "same-y sounding. I turned around and saw that the sound-man had changed my "FX direct to pre FX" so all the 30 or so patches that I used for our show were on stage only. Yeah I was pissed. The show was recorded live and the recording that we got was horrible, the sound man, who had never heard our show was "mixing", ex. during "Game Of Love" he turned me way up like the intro was a solo or something.... I guess that the people in the audience didn't know, but what he did still diminished our sound rather then "reenforcing" it. I think the guitar player would have beat the s*#t out of the guy if me had done similar to his sound.
It's funny that I used to do the same when recording in the studio as an engineer.
I knew what I'd get from the DI I provide and I didn't want take chances of using unknown DI. There is no tuning during the take so no problem.
However I had some case that bassist asked if I want to use their amps DI but I said NO because I don't know how that DI sounds. It's too late after I find out I don't like the sound. Or maybe I should have taken both of them and compare.
I'm not a PA guy but I'd consider your situation and try to take it post pedals for PA situation.
Learning things everyday.
I knew what I'd get from the DI I provide and I didn't want take chances of using unknown DI. There is no tuning during the take so no problem.
However I had some case that bassist asked if I want to use their amps DI but I said NO because I don't know how that DI sounds. It's too late after I find out I don't like the sound. Or maybe I should have taken both of them and compare.
I'm not a PA guy but I'd consider your situation and try to take it post pedals for PA situation.
Learning things everyday.
I recorded our Demo through my FX s and I had them set so they would all be at the correct level for the song to song set. I had a set and forget level that I sent to the board. Lots of work went into the programing of the FXs.........
Now that I'm playing Country again ... it's just the Bass and the Amp...the Bass sounds like I want to sound so pre or post... I don't care.. I just wanted to tell the nightmare tale as an example of how "HORRIBLY WRONG" things can go.....
Now that I'm playing Country again ... it's just the Bass and the Amp...the Bass sounds like I want to sound so pre or post... I don't care.. I just wanted to tell the nightmare tale as an example of how "HORRIBLY WRONG" things can go.....
- Feb 5, 2013
- 1,686
- 2,281
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Used Fender Lead Sleds and Hartke cabs with bent grills
I guess I've been very lucky over the years, having rarely had issues with a sound dude. We sometimes have issues with monitors (can't hear on stage) but generally get good feedback on shows using house PA/FOH guy, and we always have someone out front checking the sound for us during the first two or three songs. We try to be uber polite when suggesting changes, and show a willingness to work with the FOH guys no matter how goober/bubba they are. It goes a long way.
That said, however, I like to use the DI from my head POST EQ. I'll tell the sound guys "Let me know what you need in front" and I'll show an obvious willingness to work with them. But my bass sound is MY sound, it's what my boss is used to, it's what he likes, it's what I like ... that's what needs to go out. I'll gladly adjust my EQ a bit for the guys on the board, but the basic tone needs to stay.
It's probably already been mentioned, but as a guitarist I have never owned a head with an XLR out. Also, the speakers is part of my tone. I get mic'd. Again, I'll work with the FOH guys gladly, but there is a limit.
That said, however, I like to use the DI from my head POST EQ. I'll tell the sound guys "Let me know what you need in front" and I'll show an obvious willingness to work with them. But my bass sound is MY sound, it's what my boss is used to, it's what he likes, it's what I like ... that's what needs to go out. I'll gladly adjust my EQ a bit for the guys on the board, but the basic tone needs to stay.
It's probably already been mentioned, but as a guitarist I have never owned a head with an XLR out. Also, the speakers is part of my tone. I get mic'd. Again, I'll work with the FOH guys gladly, but there is a limit.
- Feb 8, 2005
- 3,636
- 1,053
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Bag End - Dean Markley - Thunderfunk
This is the disconnect and where the problem (such as it is) begins.
The above is completely true. It's a truth that musicians must contend with and it's a truth a soundman is forced to contend with.
The problem arises from the approach to addressing this truth. If it's a guitarist creating the above problem, he might have to tweak his EQ onstage before the FOH gets it. He may need to move his mic, he may need to turn down. He may be asked to do all of the above and more. But what he will never be asked to do is give up all his tonal shaping and have the soundman create (and this is the key: create NOT re-create) his tone.
Whereas to address the exact same problem, the bassist will (often, not always) be told he must give up anything outside of his instrument that helps create his tone.
Again, if my tone is being created by something (like an FX pedal for instance), you need that thing to re-create it FOH. This doesn't mean (just as with a guitarist) that a bassist doesn't need to be flexible and work with the soundman. What it usually means though is that the guitarist will still get to preserve the essence of his tone (albeit with some tweaks) wheres the bassist's actual crafted tone (not a tweak of it) will be what the soundman decides it should be.
This is the issue; the same problem (a legitimate one that needs to be dealt with) is dealt with on one had by needed tweaks to make it work, and on the other by starting from scratch and overriding another's creation completely.
It is not the same thing.
Maybe in the venues where you play.
I work in a medium sized, 800 seats or so, venue. When all is said and done and I'm on my 12th hour of work and I finally get in the car to go home, I average about $10.00 an hour. And I get paid well for this area.
So, yeah, tip the sound guy.
Chef
In Memoriam
I'm not saying you have to tip the sound guy, I'm saying that sound guys work their butt off for very little money. We make less then the cocktail waitress.
My whole point of chiming in on this thread in the first place was to try to dispel some myths about sound guys. Such as that they're out to get you. They're out to sabotage your sound. That they're lazy. That they don't care about your precious tone. That they make a butt load of money.
My suggestion is you may want to put yourself in that guy's shoes sometime. It's a thankless job and it's a tough job.
I've toured the country as a bass player. Load in, load out. Drive, hotel, load in, load out. I thought that was a tough gig. Then I became a sound guy.
Here's a typical night for a sound guy:
Show up an hour before the band is supposed to get there. Turn on everything, do a main speaker check, track down a buzz that mysteriously showed up. Get the drum mics prepped.
Sit around for an hour waiting for the band because they're an hour late as always (except the one time you're running late then they're at the door pissed off because you made them wait 5 minutes).
The band slowly wanders in, you ask one of them how many people are in the band and what instruments they have. The guy you ask doesn't know so you get a general idea and start pulling mics and stands. The drummer is still not there.
Finally you get the bass and guitar, and keyboards set up when the drummer wanders in. You're now 15 minutes from doors.
So you wait for the drummer to set up his Neil Peart sized drum kit and finally get it all set up. You start the line check and track down that the buzz in the bass channel is from the DI in the amp that the bass player assured you was good. So you use the busted up Whirlwind DI because the venue owner won't buy you a Radial. Hell he won't buy you new mic stands to replace the ones with bad clutches.
As you're working on the monitors the lead singer shows up. Oh ok... Nobody told me there was another guy. Fine. Oh... he has his own condensor mic that he wants me to use. Ok so now I have to ring out his monitor 2 minutes before door open because he can't use an SM58 like everybody else? ok. Go tell the door guy to hold the doors for 5 minutes.
Ring out his monitor, get a basic sound check. Deal with monitor mixes for 10 minutes (still holding doors) because the band can't quit noodling and goofing off to get a monitor mix set.
Finally throw on the house music and tell the door guy to open the doors. Deal with customers asking to play their favorite song through the PA. Explain its a Spotify station and you're not a DJ. Deal with customers asking you where their server went. Explain that you don't know and it's not your job to deal with the servers.
10 minutes after start time the band finally goes on because you had to track them all down. One at the bar, one making out with his girlfriend, one smoking dope in his car...
Run lights, monitors, and FOH mix all at the same time. All the while dealing with people telling you to turn up the guitars only to have the next person telling you to turn them down. The band manager requests that you turn it up only to have the bar tender or club owner tell you to turn it down.
Deal with that for and hour. Tell the band they have one more song in their set. They play two.
Now you're running even more behind so the band after them is pissed. You scramble to get the next band up there. You try to give the band what they want but it's tough or impossible because, thanks to the first band, you're now 20 minutes behind schedule.
Get them up and running in 15 or 20 minutes and deal with the "expert" mixing advise during that set.
Repeat. Except this time a guy brings in a vintage (as in broken) Moog Taurus that takes 10 minutes to get working.
Finally at 1:00AM you give last call. Band continues to play for 10 minutes after last call. Bartender gets pissed.
Finally the last band stops playing. You grab all your mics before someone steals them. Put all your stuff away as you work around all the gear still left on stage because the last band is in no hurry to get out of there even though the sound guy just wants to get home and sleep.
Finally you get all your crap put away, shut it all down, and go home. Total for the night $150 if you're lucky.
Come back the next night only to discover a few of your extension cords were stolen.
It's still better than working retail.
My whole point of chiming in on this thread in the first place was to try to dispel some myths about sound guys. Such as that they're out to get you. They're out to sabotage your sound. That they're lazy. That they don't care about your precious tone. That they make a butt load of money.
My suggestion is you may want to put yourself in that guy's shoes sometime. It's a thankless job and it's a tough job.
I've toured the country as a bass player. Load in, load out. Drive, hotel, load in, load out. I thought that was a tough gig. Then I became a sound guy.
Here's a typical night for a sound guy:
Show up an hour before the band is supposed to get there. Turn on everything, do a main speaker check, track down a buzz that mysteriously showed up. Get the drum mics prepped.
Sit around for an hour waiting for the band because they're an hour late as always (except the one time you're running late then they're at the door pissed off because you made them wait 5 minutes).
The band slowly wanders in, you ask one of them how many people are in the band and what instruments they have. The guy you ask doesn't know so you get a general idea and start pulling mics and stands. The drummer is still not there.
Finally you get the bass and guitar, and keyboards set up when the drummer wanders in. You're now 15 minutes from doors.
So you wait for the drummer to set up his Neil Peart sized drum kit and finally get it all set up. You start the line check and track down that the buzz in the bass channel is from the DI in the amp that the bass player assured you was good. So you use the busted up Whirlwind DI because the venue owner won't buy you a Radial. Hell he won't buy you new mic stands to replace the ones with bad clutches.
As you're working on the monitors the lead singer shows up. Oh ok... Nobody told me there was another guy. Fine. Oh... he has his own condensor mic that he wants me to use. Ok so now I have to ring out his monitor 2 minutes before door open because he can't use an SM58 like everybody else? ok. Go tell the door guy to hold the doors for 5 minutes.
Ring out his monitor, get a basic sound check. Deal with monitor mixes for 10 minutes (still holding doors) because the band can't quit noodling and goofing off to get a monitor mix set.
Finally throw on the house music and tell the door guy to open the doors. Deal with customers asking to play their favorite song through the PA. Explain its a Spotify station and you're not a DJ. Deal with customers asking you where their server went. Explain that you don't know and it's not your job to deal with the servers.
10 minutes after start time the band finally goes on because you had to track them all down. One at the bar, one making out with his girlfriend, one smoking dope in his car...
Run lights, monitors, and FOH mix all at the same time. All the while dealing with people telling you to turn up the guitars only to have the next person telling you to turn them down. The band manager requests that you turn it up only to have the bar tender or club owner tell you to turn it down.
Deal with that for and hour. Tell the band they have one more song in their set. They play two.
Now you're running even more behind so the band after them is pissed. You scramble to get the next band up there. You try to give the band what they want but it's tough or impossible because, thanks to the first band, you're now 20 minutes behind schedule.
Get them up and running in 15 or 20 minutes and deal with the "expert" mixing advise during that set.
Repeat. Except this time a guy brings in a vintage (as in broken) Moog Taurus that takes 10 minutes to get working.
Finally at 1:00AM you give last call. Band continues to play for 10 minutes after last call. Bartender gets pissed.
Finally the last band stops playing. You grab all your mics before someone steals them. Put all your stuff away as you work around all the gear still left on stage because the last band is in no hurry to get out of there even though the sound guy just wants to get home and sleep.
Finally you get all your crap put away, shut it all down, and go home. Total for the night $150 if you're lucky.
Come back the next night only to discover a few of your extension cords were stolen.
It's still better than working retail.
