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sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

#441
When I have to work with an engineer that has never heard me play, I tell him the sound I want, describing it in terms of other bass players, describe my role in the band and let him know when I will solo. I also warn them I have a 5 with flats. Then I tell him I have a nice DI on my amp, and offer it to him to use. Most of the time, though the guys are real happy to have me tell them what sound I want, and what to expect. Even had one guy said, "oh, yeah, I bet you dig the flip top sound - I can do that."

I have learned how to sound check - play quarter notes at the volume you intend to play at, play a middle "C", play a lower "C", then play a low "D" if you have a 5. Then play a short part of one of the songs you will play on the set. Next, ask the sound guy if the tone he is getting is useable. Then let him knwo if the on stage monitor level is good for the bass. Leave the EQ and volume knobs on the bass alone, after that. Then don't play anything until asked. Don't use sound check to show off or play some riff in some style you will not play on this gig. And, for sure, don't argue with the sound guy or mouth off. Oh, yeah, and thank the sound people after the gig. They will remember you for that.
 
#443
BurningSkies said:
I've played everything from no PA gigs to big rooms like 9.30 in DC
I agree that almost all soundmen can work the levels correctly from the board. I still offer. You know in the spirit of getting along.
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I worked at the 9:30 on and off for years
You had to be decent with people to work there.
One time at the old club Iggy Pop's road crew climbed under the stage and started "adjusting" the back up FoH safety limiter. I readjusted and explained that without this unit set properly we will absolutely kill speakers.
I caught them again in mid sound check.
I killed the mains at the console and as the road manager came running at me I told him that I was getting paid and going home early if they blew the system. Also told them they wouldn't get paid and that I was calling their management company to let them know what was about to happen.
Everybody suddenly got more reasonable and we made it through a packed house with the system at WFO!
A good example of how the bands' amateur sound man was on a suicide mission.
 
#444
KCaruso said:
Tell the sound man he either has to use a Radial brand Direct Box or your instruments direct out. He probably won't have the very high quality and high cost Radial, which all of the pro house sound companies use and the top bassplayers rep. This should put him in his place and he should respond, "ok we will use your out". If he says your output is too low make him prove it in the sound check. If he has a Radial, use it!
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I really hope this is sarcasm. Because I don't think anyone would take the inverse situation seriously, with the soundguy "putting the musicians in their place" by demanded certain boutique gear. This sounds like a good candidate for "last statement before the entire evening goes downhill".

As others have alluded to in earlier posts, I find a "My amp has a good DI on it with a ground lift and adjustable level. Do you mind if we try a post-EQ to start?" can work wonders. It hints that you're not completely ignorant about possible issues, and you're still giving him final veto power. And if there are problems, it can also identify you as someone to work with, rather than just give orders to.
 
#446
Before working as a musician and building my products, I have been working as a sound engineer and I feel we have to distinguish two situations very comparable to what you could experience as a bass player.

In situation one you rush to a gig where you play with people you do not well know for a one time show and in the worst case where several bands play. You obviously will take a bass that you are used too and that is versatile to be prepared of any situation.

In situation two you are working with a band that you know well or where you will go on tour. Here you will test what bass fits best for what you are going to do and you are open to suggestions from the other band members.

I feel we should look at the work and decisions of a sound engineer the same way and I never get offended if on a "hit and run" gig the sound engineer refuses to give my or my amps DI a try, at least as long he turns up with what I consider a decent DI himself.

My two cents
 
#448
Jim C said:
I worked at the 9:30 on and off for years
You had to be decent with people to work there.
One time at the old club Iggy Pop's road crew climbed under the stage and started "adjusting" the back up FoH safety limiter. I readjusted and explained that without this unit set properly we will absolutely kill speakers.
I caught them again in mid sound check.
I killed the mains at the console and as the road manager came running at me I told him that I was getting paid and going home early if they blew the system. Also told them they wouldn't get paid and that I was calling their management company to let them know what was about to happen.
Everybody suddenly got more reasonable and we made it through a packed house with the system at WFO!
A good example of how the bands' amateur sound man was on a suicide mission.
Click to expand...

That's awesome, Jim. I always had a blast at 9.30 (this would have been the 2nd 9.30 club I believe). The people there were ALWAYS good, as were the people at I.M.P. 9.30 took the time for a real soundcheck, had well staffed production and I loved the private dressing rooms with showers, towels and catering. :) The VIP bar/balcony didn't hurt either!

I did an Iggy show when I was in college. The first thing he did when he got on stage was pull out his d*** and wave it at the crowd and say "This is what you Mother****ers came for!"
 
#452
AngelCrusher said:
Did his D**** have a DI, or was the gain boosted too much? lol.
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We mic'ed it. But really, if I had a dollar for every punk rock appendage I've seen on stage, I'd have a fist full of dollars. That was a 'stock move' for a generation.

Chef said:
Ah; those were the days, eh...?
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There were some fun ones. ;) One of the other clubs that stands out for weirdness is Aerosmith's Boston club , Mama Kin...with private bar/stage upstairs for the Aerosmith guys...complete with runway and stripper pole.
 
#454
BurningSkies said:
We mic'ed it. But really, if I had a dollar for every punk rock appendage I've seen on stage, I'd have a fist full of dollars. That was a 'stock move' for a generation.



There were some fun ones. ;) One of the other clubs that stands out for weirdness is Aerosmith's Boston club , Mama Kin...with private bar/stage upstairs for the Aerosmith guys...complete with runway and stripper pole.
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Oh yes, I remember working those kinds of shows back then as well. A couple of us long time sound guys were talking about this over lunch a couple of weeks ago... what ever happened to some of those bands (those folks who haven't died of course). Some of those shows were disturbing at best... and they never complained about a DI on bass... hell, we were lucky to find the bass and trust me, we didn't look very hard at anything at those shows ;)
 
#455
agedhorse said:
Oh yes, I remember working those kinds of shows back then as well. A couple of us long time sound guys were talking about this over lunch a couple of weeks ago... what ever happened to spome of those bands (those folks who haven't died of course). Some of those shows were disturbing at best... and they never complained about a DI on bass... hell, we were lucky to find the bass and trust me, we didn't look very hard at anything at those shows ;)
Click to expand...

Some bands were surprisingly proficient, then there were a whole bunch of bands who seemed to take pride in not knowing how to play a damn thing. I also remember the guys from the Ramones looking pretty normal for load in, but then bringing out a rolling wardrobe full of dirty t-shirts and ripped jeans for stage. :crying:
 
#456
remainthesame said:
Okay, so I use a gk 1001rbII. Anybody familiar with the amp probably knows and loves the direct out on it. A few of the sound guys in my area seem to either ignore it or hate it or something. They always unplug me from my amp (the input is right next to the direct out, you cant miss it) and they hook me up to their di box. Now there's a couple things that bother me about this, only one of them actually effects me, but the rest is just as annoying.

First issue, it renders my tuner mute totally useless. You can hear me try to tune through the pa while my singer talks to the crowd. Which to me is unprofessional, I know I hate seeing other bands do that. I know I can unplug and go to the tuner but if he used the direct out on my amp, I wouldn't have to do that. :mad:

My second issue is, If I was a sound guy I would rather use the direct out that comes on most bass amps these days. You simply plug in an XLR, dial in a tone on the mixing board and you're done. They usually only sound check me for about 7 seconds before telling me to stop playing anyway. They might as well save the additional couple seconds it takes to unplug me and hook me up to the box.

Whenever we set up and I see the sound guy comming my way I tell them about the direct out. They usually say one of the following:
"i just want to make sure it has a ground lift"--- theres a ground lift on the one on my amp.

"nah my box is better" --- as he pulls out a crappy $25 di

"this way is easier for me" --- which i cannot prove to be wrong, but in my mind it would be easier to use the one on the amp.


Does anybody else think this is crazy? Or am I the one being an idiot here? :confused:
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Tell the sound guy NO!!!
 
#457
agedhorse said:
Oh yes, I remember working those kinds of shows back then as well. A couple of us long time sound guys were talking about this over lunch a couple of weeks ago... what ever happened to spome of those bands (those folks who haven't died of course). Some of those shows were disturbing at best... and they never complained about a DI on bass... hell, we were lucky to find the bass and trust me, we didn't look very hard at anything at those shows ;)
Click to expand...
That's because they turned up loud enough to make it moot ;)
 
#458
lfmn16 said:
+1000

I don't know how this obvious statement is overlooked in every bass player vs. sound man thread. Why does the BASS PLAYER not get to determine what he sounds like? It seems to me that the sound man should determine how to get the sound that the bass player wants - and please don't bring up the obvious point that it can't happen in 100% of all cases; let's stick to the vast majority of situations. What if the bass player likes a nice deep, fat, bassy sound and the sound man likes a lot of midrange? Or vice versa?
Click to expand...

The simplest way to address this is what you like might not sit well at all in a mix. What if we, as sound guys, just let everyone pick the sound they liked and tried to squeeze that into a live mix. It would probably be a disaster. Many guitar players like to drive the bass up, getting way down into bass range. Many bass players like to use a "smiley face" EQ, which cuts out most of the mids (the frequencies that are the easiest to use to project the bass). Many drummers like to tune their drums to sound like soup cans. If there were no discussions, negotiations, and just grown up actions involved, your band might wind up sounding like crap, no matter how good the sound guy is.

I can do a lot for you. But I can't polish a turd. So EVERYONE needs to give a little for the good of the overall mix. Your favorite tone might sound like crap when combined with one screaching high twangy guitar, one drop tuned 19 string guitar, and tin can drums. But if everyone talks nice to each other, and everyone works with each other, we can get a great mix in only minutes.

But, AGAIN, none of this will get solved here. Both sides are equally to blame for most arguments/ill will. Both sides have chips on their shoulders.
 
#459
There are a whole pile of assumptions for basic sound reinforcement and mixing that must be appreciated by the bass player before the soundguy can have any confidence he will have anything decent to work with from the bass amp post EQ.

It behoves the bassist to convince the soundguy he might just have a clue or three, to try working with the bass amp post EQ in his minimal time allocation when time is evaporating. Work on your people skills people!
 
#460
two fingers said:
The simplest way to address this is what you like might not sit well at all in a mix. What if we, as sound guys, just let everyone pick the sound they liked and tried to squeeze that into a live mix. It would probably be a disaster. Many guitar players like to drive the bass up, getting way down into bass range. Many bass players like to use a "smiley face" EQ, which cuts out most of the mids (the frequencies that are the easiest to use to project the bass). Many drummers like to tune their drums to sound like soup cans. If there were no discussions, negotiations, and just grown up actions involved, your band might wind up sounding like crap, no matter how good the sound guy is.

I can do a lot for you. But I can't polish a turd. So EVERYONE needs to give a little for the good of the overall mix. Your favorite tone might sound like crap when combined with one screaching high twangy guitar, one drop tuned 19 string guitar, and tin can drums. But if everyone talks nice to each other, and everyone works with each other, we can get a great mix in only minutes.

But, AGAIN, none of this will get solved here. Both sides are equally to blame for most arguments/ill will. Both sides have chips on their shoulders.
Click to expand...
He started it!

:spit:

Actually, I agree. Most of the time it's easily solved. I've had times where a soundman has said to me that he couldn't get anything but 100-125 in the house when I was micng my amp, and I lowered the bass knob a little and it was fine. It's all about being a professional and not taking every little criticism to heart. But had he demanded we pull the mic and use his Whirlwind Director DI instead, then that might have caused a rift. Instead, he came to me like a man, I responded like a man, and made the show pop together. That's what you do.
 

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