Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
sound guy ignoring direct out on amp
- Thread starter remainthesame
- Start date
You're contradicting yourself - just sayin'...
- georgestrings
I have come to the conclusion that there is just a certain breed of soundman who feels like they are the smartest person in the room at all times, feels that every band they work with are fools, and lets you know that in no uncertain terms te second you walk in the door.
I just hope the understanding that while there are two sides to the board, there is no fence so don't put up one comes out of this? A little respect on either or both sides can go a long way.
Yeah... kinda. But also not really.
I think It's a situational thing. Look at my examples. If you're on a cattle call night, and I have to herd your band on stage. and/or you're being a douche. DI.
If you're on a cattle call night and you have a decent rig and you tell me in a respectful manner that you really want a mic on your bass cab, you get a mic on your bass cab. But if you're muddy I'll toss on a DI. If I have time.
If you're on a cattle call night and you show up with a butt load of pedals... I'll mic the cab. I'll maybe mic the cab and use a DI.
If you show up on time for your sound check, and you request that I mic your rig and we have time to dial it in. I'll mic the rig. But if you're too muddy for the room, I'll use a DI.
If you show up 5 minutes before the doors open. DI.
Why? I know my room, I know my gear. And quite honestly, I have enough to worry about throughout the night that if you're a jerk I just don't want to deal with you so a DI is easier. I won't sabotage your sound but I'll make it easy for me. That's not being lazy, it's just the truth.
If you're nice and respectful and we have time... I'll bend over backwards for you.
So... situational for sure. Mutual respect that's all us sound guys want.
Well I hope I don't come across that way.
There are bands that treat the sound guy the same way.
You may, but it is different depending on your location. I've mixed professionally in 48 states in the USA so far, it is different in different locations, depending on zoning and local gov't.
Right, but it just something that adds to the list of things I need to think about throughout the night. So if the sound guy asks you to turn it down there's probably a good reason.
Whole lot of high horse pontification here.
I plug my effects straight into a very basic mixer on one gig where we don't have vocals, so I know my basic tone can be readily eq'd in any PA. The sound is very dynamic, good luck mixing us!
The only gig I played that band with FOH the soundman lied about the DI in my sansamp being dead. That was before I got into effect pedals.
For the guys rocking big rigs in small to medium bars with ropey PA, the DI question is almost moot.
Occasional gigs I play with FOH the sound guy will invariably try to DI off my upright / eub but I have never had a problem convincing them the line out of my amp is good and no complaints. Besides, I run a bass guitar too for the odd number, so I'm saving them work!
I plug my effects straight into a very basic mixer on one gig where we don't have vocals, so I know my basic tone can be readily eq'd in any PA. The sound is very dynamic, good luck mixing us!
The only gig I played that band with FOH the soundman lied about the DI in my sansamp being dead. That was before I got into effect pedals.
For the guys rocking big rigs in small to medium bars with ropey PA, the DI question is almost moot.
Occasional gigs I play with FOH the sound guy will invariably try to DI off my upright / eub but I have never had a problem convincing them the line out of my amp is good and no complaints. Besides, I run a bass guitar too for the odd number, so I'm saving them work!
That person is present in every walk of life, and actually- i've met more ego- centric musicians than sound engineers, myself.
The classic issue here is really the artistic vision butting heads with reality. As stated, everyone needs to meet in the middle in order to work together.
You mean, you ask because of the issues in your house.
I've never really had any luck with asking people to turn down in the last 25 years of shows,
if they are too clueless to realize the repercussions of what they are doing to a room with their amp, do you think they will listen to the evil sound guy, trying to crush their vibe? Guaranteed 3 songs in, they are back up to the original volume. No matter what the reason. Sure there are exceptions, but they usually ask if they need to turn down, not the other way around.
- Feb 8, 2005
- 3,636
- 1,053
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Bag End - Dean Markley - Thunderfunk
It's not true huh? When was the last time you told a guitar player he had to give you a send straight from his guitar and have other tone shaping?
I like and respect you, agedhorse, but I'm calling shenanigans on this. WHICH guitar tone is easier to represent versus WHICH bass tone? A scooped metal guitar, clean jazz guitar with flats, vintage, modern, flanged, chorused, distorted...WHICH one of those are you talking about? ALL of them?
And they are ALL easier to represent than WHICH bass tone? Geddy grind, clean HI FI, slapped, muddy, thin, middy, 4 string, 7 string, solo, pick, fingerstyle, hollowbody? Or is the answer again "all of them"?
Come on, to say "it's MUCH easier to get a representative sound micing a guitar." as if that is always the case strains credulity, and you're providing nothing to back it up.
Only by an octave, and within a musical context often less. The point about multiple drivers is a good one though, except quite often bassists will use single drivers or multiples of that which are easy to mic.
Also, since low frequencies are so problematic (and they are) a DI is going to have much more low end in the signal than the vast majority of mic'ed signals, a DI will be more prone to boominess.
Many thing are common knowledge and not based in fact. Besides who gets to decide what one artists is allowed to "need" to get their tone?
Good point, except show me one sentence in there that does not apply to a guitarist.
Trust is earned. Shouldn't he also trust that I'm thinking of the greater good just as much as he is?
Sure, except let's not forget a simple fact. What qualifies as "the best sound" (whether a bass tone or a whole mix) is always and necessarily and nothing more than AN OPINION. Sure, it may be an informed one (and both sides can be informed), but that doesn't elevate opinion into fact.
Yeah, you're paying the engineer for his opinion. You have a right to disagree of course, it's your money. But all the real pros I've worked with, live, or in the studio, will listen to the engineer.
- Feb 8, 2005
- 3,636
- 1,053
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Bag End - Dean Markley - Thunderfunk
Indeed. All the real pros I have had the pleasure to work with will listen to anybody who knows what they are talking about. Just tonight I did a show where the soundman actually suggested I mic the cab because he dug the sound, and in fact it was my idea to just DI because (in this particular case) we both ended up concluding it sounded fine. But we worked together and the agreed upon best sound was the goal, not what made someone's job easier.
This conversation has taken some interesting turns, no?
Regardless of the instrument, most (if not all) serious musicians work hard to achieve a good tone—in some cases, a signature tone, a career tone. We can all name scores of musicians whose distinctive and unmistakable voice, be that voice vocal or instrumental, distinguished their careers. Bassists are no less entitled to the artistic right to control, to the extent possible, the quality and qualities of their sound.
Sound reinforcement is a support function—it exists to support the performer and performance, for the benefit of the audience. A competent and conscientious FOH engineer, like a competent and conscientious recording engineer, will utilize his expertise, creativity, and technical tools available, to realize the artistic intent of the performer and provide the audience with an accurate account of the performance.
Whether or not the engineer approves of a musician’s desired sound is irrelevant—it’s his/her professional responsibility to make the sound that the audience hears match, as closely as possible, the sound that the performer intends to project; to capture the performance as accurately as possible and make it louder. Just because the sound guy/gal has hundreds of knobs and switches capable of extensive sound-shaping (and the expertise to use that capability) does in no way convey any artistic license whatsoever. The bass might sound bloated and muddy or razor-thin and brittle, but if that’s the way the bassist wants it to sound, then so be it. If that ain't the way the bassist wants to sound, work somma your mojo on them knobs.
For their part, musicians oughtta understand that performing music in a variety of different venues requires a willingness to make compromises (sometimes significant compromises) when necessary, and that there are often limits to what can be accomplished due to time, technical, and venue-specific issues. A good engineer can be an indispensable ally, especially with effective communication and professional respect. Get the best sound that can reasonably be achieved; accept imperfection; nail the performance. Be gracious when the sound tech isn’t up to standard, and sincerely appreciative when he/she is.
That said, people were blown to pieces in Boston today and none of this seems all that important right now. Too much effing perspective--way too much.
Regardless of the instrument, most (if not all) serious musicians work hard to achieve a good tone—in some cases, a signature tone, a career tone. We can all name scores of musicians whose distinctive and unmistakable voice, be that voice vocal or instrumental, distinguished their careers. Bassists are no less entitled to the artistic right to control, to the extent possible, the quality and qualities of their sound.
Sound reinforcement is a support function—it exists to support the performer and performance, for the benefit of the audience. A competent and conscientious FOH engineer, like a competent and conscientious recording engineer, will utilize his expertise, creativity, and technical tools available, to realize the artistic intent of the performer and provide the audience with an accurate account of the performance.
Whether or not the engineer approves of a musician’s desired sound is irrelevant—it’s his/her professional responsibility to make the sound that the audience hears match, as closely as possible, the sound that the performer intends to project; to capture the performance as accurately as possible and make it louder. Just because the sound guy/gal has hundreds of knobs and switches capable of extensive sound-shaping (and the expertise to use that capability) does in no way convey any artistic license whatsoever. The bass might sound bloated and muddy or razor-thin and brittle, but if that’s the way the bassist wants it to sound, then so be it. If that ain't the way the bassist wants to sound, work somma your mojo on them knobs.
For their part, musicians oughtta understand that performing music in a variety of different venues requires a willingness to make compromises (sometimes significant compromises) when necessary, and that there are often limits to what can be accomplished due to time, technical, and venue-specific issues. A good engineer can be an indispensable ally, especially with effective communication and professional respect. Get the best sound that can reasonably be achieved; accept imperfection; nail the performance. Be gracious when the sound tech isn’t up to standard, and sincerely appreciative when he/she is.
That said, people were blown to pieces in Boston today and none of this seems all that important right now. Too much effing perspective--way too much.
I disagree. Chuck Berry is an icon. Accept no imitations.
You hire Chuck Berry because you want Chuck Berry, so let Chuck Berry be Chuck Berry and keep your greasy mitts off of his knobs.
If Chuck Berry doesn't work out quite the way you imagined, there's always Little Richard. Hmmm: Little Richard vs. Keith Richards.
I do the same except mine are, Sans amp, and Countryman, Sound man from a gig last year told me no on both of those, and to the one on my Super Red Head. He absolutley insisted on using his DOD From like 1989. I didnt bother arguing with him. But two other Sound guys that I work with regularly really like the Countryman and one of those guys bought two of them.
Chef
In Memoriam
