Source Audio Sorcerers Society (S.A.S.S) Part 3

[Adamixoye]

The "deep editor" is basically a polished version of the tool that we use to create the factory effect sounds. It effectively exposes every parameter buried deep down in every nook and cranny of the algorithm, and it gives you access to the full power of what the algorithm is capable of. As an example, the Nemesis delay algorithm consists of a large number of sub-blocks that are responsible for different processing tasks (modulation, degradation, distortion, filtering, et cetera), and each of those sub-blocks has its own set of parameters which are commonly not accessible to the user. There are over 100 parameters that we use to configure those processing blocks in the Nemesis, and the resulting sounds become available on the main effect selector such as Shifter, Tape, or Diffuse. The deep editor will give you access to all of those parameters that are normally out of sight.

This is in contrast with the more basic editor on the Neuro app, which might have something like 20 parameters available, which are more easily understood and accessible to the average user... Feedback, filter shape, and distortion, for example.



The deep editor will not take you down to the level of writing low-level assembly code to run on the DSP. Trust me, you probably don't want to go there. The underlying code is fixed and cannot be changed by the user; we're just giving you access to every parameter you ever wanted (and even some that you might not!).

Okay, that makes sense. I am curious if you have maybe a slightly more specific example? Like, in the Nemesis, what are a few of the "deep editing" parameters that you wouldn't be able to access with the Neuro?

 

[TheSleeve]

Okay, that makes sense. I am curious if you have maybe a slightly more specific example? Like, in the Nemesis, what are a few of the "deep editing" parameters that you wouldn't be able to access with the Neuro?

The feedback gain of the nth delay tap in a multi-tap ping pong delay, for example.

 

[TheSleeve]

If you ever get down to making a One Series equivalent of the Manta/BEF, would you guys consider using one input to control the envelope and applying it to another input? I envision splitting the signal right at the start with an Aftershock, sending out a clean or lightly overdriven signal and a very heavily distorted fuzz signal. The envelope filter is then controlled by the clean signal (i.e. more dynamics) and applied to the fuzz. With a setup like this, you could even run the rest of the board in-between the Aftershock and the envelope filter, but still control the envelope shape with the dynamics of whatever you split off from the Aftershock.

Great idea!

Is this what you mean?

This is an example with a chain of 3 effects. The first is a mono effect with dry out, and the second and third pedals take input 2 and use it as a source for the envelope, while passing the dry signal out of output 2 for the next effect.

If that's what you had in mind, then yes... we have it covered!

 

[TheSleeve]

...and I almost forgot the last step in the chain... mixing:

 

[Adamixoye]

Okay, two more One Series questions:

(1) All of the options @rsmith601 mentioned earlier---variable HPF, EQ, etc.---apply to the Nemesis as well?
(2) Any chance that there will be a noise gate included in the One Series, including the Nemesis? The noise gate in my M5, which I use primarily for delay, is what will make it really hard for me to bump that off of my board...

 

[kleinenenten]

Great to hear, hope the pedals work for you! Although it worked out very well for me, it might not necessarily work for everyone though, and not in all situations too so I suggest you do try it out first if you can...

If you're not using expression/HH, I assume you're using the envelope instead then? In that case may I suggest you try the Manta instead of the BEF? Gives you the option of sidechaining the dry signal for the envelope and then using that envelope on the manta's distorted signal - gives a more nuanced envelope than if you just send a fuzz directly into the envelope filter.

By the way, a question to the SA guys on the board - you guys mentioned that there's an option in the new One Series to use the dry signal for the envelope, right? If you ever get down to making a One Series equivalent of the Manta/BEF, would you guys consider using one input to control the envelope and applying it to another input? I envision splitting the signal right at the start with an Aftershock, sending out a clean or lightly overdriven signal and a very heavily distorted fuzz signal. The envelope filter is then controlled by the clean signal (i.e. more dynamics) and applied to the fuzz. With a setup like this, you could even run the rest of the board in-between the Aftershock and the envelope filter, but still control the envelope shape with the dynamics of whatever you split off from the Aftershock.

And what would be even better is if you could then blend these two inputs into one output, so the envelope is controlled by the clean while the filter is applied to the fuzz, and then the two are blended together so the filtered fuzz doesn't lose lows or definition.

So this would be something like the Manta, if there was an effects loop option where instead of just running through the Manta's internal distortions, you could run anything else through the loop and then send it back to be envelope-filtered based on the clean signal.



I'm quite curious about something - do the 20 parameters on the Neuro app all correspond to individual parameters from the back page? By that, I mean that if I were to look through the list of the "over 100 parameters" in the deep editor, will I find the 20 parameters from the Neuro app? Or is it more practical to have some 'master controls' that are intuitive for less tech-savvy users to tweak in the Neuro app, but actually involve the tweaking of multiple deep editor parameters? I don't really know how exactly your programming works, but I'm thinking something like where say "Tone shape" might be a Neuro-level parameter that actually shifts a few different EQ settings in the deep editor, or perhaps you might have a knob labelled "Ambience" that shifts several reverb and echo parameters to give a very natural and intuitive change in the room sound of the wet signal.

Actually, I chose the BEF over the Manta because I don't want/need the Manta's distortion. I love my distorted sounds and just want a filter to go with them. Also, I don't find myself really wanting a nuanced filter sound, this will be used in a stoner/doom context most of the time. And also, yes, I said mild distortion and doom. I am using very mild settings compared to many doomers. I am aware of the apparent oxymoron of mild distortion doom.

 

[kleinenenten]

And SA BEF is on its way...

In a repeat news story, my wallet HATES TB!

 

[Nic.]

...and I almost forgot the last step in the chain... mixing:
View attachment 593079

Whoa that's even better than I expected, I didn't think of sending the envelope to more than one pedal!

Come to think of it, allowing the envelope to be applied to distortion gain could be pretty nice too - super touch-sensitive distortion, the harder you hit the more it distorts.

Actually, I chose the BEF over the Manta because I don't want/need the Manta's distortion. I love my distorted sounds and just want a filter to go with them. Also, I don't find myself really wanting a nuanced filter sound, this will be used in a stoner/doom context most of the time. And also, yes, I said mild distortion and doom. I am using very mild settings compared to many doomers. I am aware of the apparent oxymoron of mild distortion doom.

You can turn off the distortion on the manta, and I think it's also smaller and you can save two presets instead of just one..... but...

And SA BEF is on its way...

In a repeat news story, my wallet HATES TB!

.... awesome, hope you love it and please post your doom sounds with the BEF!

 

[kleinenenten]

Whoa that's even better than I expected, I didn't think of sending the envelope to more than one pedal!

Come to think of it, allowing the envelope to be applied to distortion gain could be pretty nice too - super touch-sensitive distortion, the harder you hit the more it distorts.


You can turn off the distortion on the manta, and I think it's also smaller and you can save two presets instead of just one..... but...


.... awesome, hope you love it and please post your doom sounds with the BEF!

Yeah, I'm a fan of KISS (Keep it simple, stupid). So features I wouldn't be interested in as well as extra filter presets I'd never touch wouldn't be my thing. Also, I'm on a budget and couldn't get the Manta or Pro cheap. I got this BEF for a steal!

 

[Nic.]

@kleinenenten

Cheap sounds awesome - like how I picked up my OFD from a traditionalist guitarist heh. By the way I don't think there's more filter types, what I mean is that you can save two presets for quick retrieval by stomping rather than just one.

 

[kleinenenten]

@kleinenenten

Cheap sounds awesome - like how I picked up my OFD from a traditionalist guitarist heh. By the way I don't think there's more filter types, what I mean is that you can save two presets for quick retrieval by stomping rather than just one.

Guitarists...pffft. Probably had no idea what he was selling...

 

[Nic.]

Guitarists...pffft. Probably had no idea what he was selling...

Seriously I got it for around us$60. That's why I'm using the guitar OFD and not the bass OFD, although I'll probably replace it with the aftershock (which also will give me space for the chorus)

 

[Nic.]

@TheSleeve if you don't mind, some more things I want to ask about the new pedals -

1) Does the Gemini have tap tempo? Since it just has only one footswitch, I can't imagine how that'll be put in place...
2) Can you apply different EQs to the two inputs when mixing? Maybe via the deep editor or something.
3) Let's say I send two inputs into the Gemini. Can I apply an effect to each input, then combine the two channels and output? I'm now having serious thoughts about taking the OFD off my board and putting in an Aftershock and Gemini, would a routing like this be possible?

Bass -> Aftershock with smooth tube overdrive -> split to two outputs, A and B
A: direct to Gemini input 1 as the 'clean' input
B: to Multiwave and Manta, then to Gemini input 2
Then the Gemini applies effects (or not) to the two inputs, and combines them into one final output.

In fact if you ever manage to get it to apply two effects to Gemini input 2 (wet), and then combine input 1 (dry) and 2 into one output... that would be really nice. So one box fulfills both my phaser and chorus wants/needs and in a flexible manner. And if there's an EQ option for each input..... that would be crazy. Perfect crossover blend. You could sell it just as a flexible MIDI-controlled mini-mixer pedal and it would probably sell.


p.s. - when I brought my Manta to my local retailer to fix, I asked him about the One Series and he said they're probably bringing them in around June or July. That sounds just in time for my birthday! Heh.

p.p.s. - regarding my Manta's broken footswitch, my local retailer fixed it up for free and it's in perfect condition now! In time for my band's audition this Saturday.

 

[TheSleeve]

@TheSleeve if you don't mind, some more things I want to ask about the new pedals -

1) Does the Gemini have tap tempo? Since it just has only one footswitch, I can't imagine how that'll be put in place...

Using the Neuro port, you will be able to send MIDI clock to the Gemini (via the Hub). You can convert tap tempo to MIDI clock using a variety of MIDI controllers; the Source Audio MIDI controller will also support this when it is released.

As a side note, the footswitch on One Series pedals will be dual-function. We're experimenting with press-and-hold functionality on the footswitch to recall a single preset so that you can save and recall your favorite sound with no need for external hardware such as the Hub.

2) Can you apply different EQs to the two inputs when mixing? Maybe via the deep editor or something.

We are investigating this! In fact, we discussed it quite a bit at lunch yesterday. Nothing is finalized yet, but it looks like there will be some flexibility to independently control the EQ on each side.

3) Let's say I send two inputs into the Gemini. Can I apply an effect to each input, then combine the two channels and output? I'm now having serious thoughts about taking the OFD off my board and putting in an Aftershock and Gemini, would a routing like this be possible?

This was not part of the original list of routing options, but the routing system is set up to handle it. I'll add it to the list!

Bass -> Aftershock with smooth tube overdrive -> split to two outputs, A and B
A: direct to Gemini input 1 as the 'clean' input
B: to Multiwave and Manta, then to Gemini input 2
Then the Gemini applies effects (or not) to the two inputs, and combines them into one final output.

In fact if you ever manage to get it to apply two effects to Gemini input 2 (wet), and then combine input 1 (dry) and 2 into one output... that would be really nice. So one box fulfills both my phaser and chorus wants/needs and in a flexible manner. And if there's an EQ option for each input..... that would be crazy. Perfect crossover blend. You could sell it just as a flexible MIDI-controlled mini-mixer pedal and it would probably sell.

You have lots of good ideas here! We haven't finalized all of the mixing/routing combinations yet, but we will certainly keep your suggestions in mind.

p.s. - when I brought my Manta to my local retailer to fix, I asked him about the One Series and he said they're probably bringing them in around June or July. That sounds just in time for my birthday! Heh.

Sounds good! By the way, I used to travel to Singapore frequently on business trips, but I never had the free time to stop in a music shop.

Here's the obligatory tourist photo of me standing in front of the Merlion:

p.p.s. - regarding my Manta's broken footswitch, my local retailer fixed it up for free and it's in perfect condition now! In time for my band's audition this Saturday.

It's great to hear this! I'm glad that your retailer was able to quickly fix it up for you. We updated the mechanical design so that the footswitches won't be problematic in new Soundblox 2 units.

 

[Adamixoye]

Okay, two more One Series questions:

(1) All of the options @rsmith601 mentioned earlier---variable HPF, EQ, etc.---apply to the Nemesis as well?
(2) Any chance that there will be a noise gate included in the One Series, including the Nemesis? The noise gate in my M5, which I use primarily for delay, is what will make it really hard for me to bump that off of my board...

I'll just quote myself there...

This was not part of the original list of routing options, but the routing system is set up to handle it. I'll add it to the list!

You have lots of good ideas here! We haven't finalized all of the mixing/routing combinations yet, but we will certainly keep your suggestions in mind.

One more question/suggestion...will there be an Amptweaker/Boss LS-2 style mode where you say, connect a modulation pedal to the input/output #2 of a dirt pedal and it switches between clean with modulation and dirty without?

 

[Nic.]

@TheSleeve all really great to hear! Sounds like I'll definitely need to switch out my MIDI mouse to the SA MIDI controller... Solemate was it? Figuring out my pedalboard space is going to be a headache though. On the other hand, if the built-in pedal EQ is advanced enough I might be able to kick the Zoom MS60B off my board - was using it as a noise gate + really detailed EQ, which would give me more space.

Regarding the routing option, so far most of the info I've seen seems to be about routing within a pedal - which is actually really really crazy cool especially since I think no other pedal on the market other than big expensive multi-fx is doing yet. Having all these options within something roughly Boss-sized is ridiculous. But I've hardly seen much about using routing options in conjunction between the various pedals (whether One Series or Soundblox), which is surprising since the SA stuff seems to be about having the whole pedalboard as an interacting ecosystem.

Anyway, if you're ever in Singapore again drop me a message and I'll show you around to all the best food and music shops and stuff like that! This invitation applies to the rest of you guys around here too.

 

[TheSleeve]

Okay, two more One Series questions:

(1) All of the options @@rsmith601 mentioned earlier---variable HPF, EQ, etc.---apply to the Nemesis as well?

The Nemesis is a bit of a different beast in that its audio processing circuit differs significantly from the rest of the One Series. Currently, it looks like the Nemesis will be using all of its available processing power to implement the delay algorithm and it will not have enough power remaining to implement a parametric EQ.

(2) Any chance that there will be a noise gate included in the One Series, including the Nemesis? The noise gate in my M5, which I use primarily for delay, is what will make it really hard for me to bump that off of my board...

The L.A. Lady and Kingmaker will have noise gates implemented in them. As it currently stands, the other products will not have noise gates since their processing power is being almost fully utilized by the effects and EQ.

One more question/suggestion...will there be an Amptweaker/Boss LS-2 style mode where you say, connect a modulation pedal to the input/output #2 of a dirt pedal and it switches between clean with modulation and dirty without?

If I understand correctly, that would look like this:

Does that match your idea? You're basically selecting either A or X, but never both at the same time.

I can say it's not something we had planned on supporting, but I think it might be possible. I will discuss it with my fellow engineers!

 

[Nic.]

@TheSleeve that looks like what the AmpTweaker pedals do - if A is distortion and X is an external modulator pedal. I suppose since the One series disstortion pedals use less processing than the modulation pedals, that's probably more feasible.

You mention only the LA Lady and Kingmaker, I guess the Aftershock needs more processing for the lower frequencies?

Also something else I thought of regarding tap tempo and multi-function switch; is it possible to set a mode where the footswitch is used purely for tap tempo? If I'm controlling the pedal settings entirely via MIDI rather than using the footswitch to turn the preset on/off, I imagine that would be a great way to implement tap tempo without the need for another switch.

 

[TheSleeve]

You mention only the LA Lady and Kingmaker, I guess the Aftershock needs more processing for the lower frequencies?[/USER]

Uh Oh. Major mistake on my part! I forgot to mention the BASS distortion pedal in a BASS effects forum.

Correction: The Aftershock, L.A. Lady, and Kingmaker will all have noise gates implemented in them.

Also something else I thought of regarding tap tempo and multi-function switch; is it possible to set a mode where the footswitch is used purely for tap tempo? If I'm controlling the pedal settings entirely via MIDI rather than using the footswitch to turn the preset on/off, I imagine that would be a great way to implement tap tempo without the need for another switch.

I'm not sure of the feasibility of this, but I will certainly discuss it with my fellow engineers.

 

[Nic.]

All that sounds great. Even without those options, the existing options are already quite sufficient for most uses I think! Looking forward to more news about these pedals.

Edit - @TheSleeve, another question on the behalf of my band's guitarist: he's looking for a delay/modulation pedal, and likes the sound of the Nemesis... anyway, I recall there was a list of parameters that can be changed on the Nemesis, although I'm not sure where it is now, and there was stuff like octaving, bitcrushing, chorusing, etc. on it. Are these only applicable to the wet signal? Or can you apply it to the dry signal also? For example, I think it'd be really cool if besides using it as a delay, if you really wanted to you could use it as a bitcrushed-chorus pedal.