Source Audio Sorcerers Society (S.A.S.S) Part 3

[nnavarro]

@Nathan Navarro Okay. I did a lot of testing last night and there are so many variables that it's really hard to narrow things down and draw conclusions, but I'll try to make this as simple as possible by clearly stating what are facts/observations and what I'm concluding from those facts/observations.

PREVIOUSLY DETERMINED
(1) Under certain conditions, my SB2 pedals jump to different settings---seen in the Vine above.

(2) Through previous examination with the Hub Manager, it appeared that the settings the pedals were jumping to were the settings stored in Scene 0 of the Hub.

(3) My kludge to override this was that make Scene 0 of the Hub "null." Though inconvenient, this worked well enough. But it sacrifices more than a scene; with the Hub constantly jumping to the null Scene 0, my settings don't change, but if I try to save a scene from the Hub directly it will only save to Scene 0.

OBSERVATIONS FROM LAST NIGHT
I'm only going to discuss what I clearly observed last night. I feel like it's possible I've occasionally seen exceptions to the behavior below, but for simplicity I won't include any of that.

(1) I was able to clearly correlate the jumping/settings changes with being hooked up to the Beat Buddy. I plugged (by MIDI) the Beat Buddy straight into the Hub and got the behavior. When I unplugged the MIDI cables OR set the Beat Buddy to "Thru" instead of "Out," so that that the Beat Buddy should not be sending any data, the jumping stopped.

(2) I tested what was coming from the Beat Buddy with a M-Audio UNO interface into my laptop and a MIDI Monitor program. When the Beat Buddy is not playing, nothing shows up. When the Beat Buddy is playing, there is a series of MIDI Note On and Note Off messages. Apparently MIDI clock and any real-time messages are not picked up by this monitoring program I was using.

(3) I tried the same thing on MIDI Designer on my iPad and saw the same messages.

(4) I tested the MIDI Monitor program on my laptop just to make sure it saw PC and CC messages and it did.

(5) The M-Audio UNO does not do MIDI Thru by default. When hooked up to the MIDI Monitor program (it's literally called "MIDI Monitor"), I can set it to Thru. This actually influences the behavior of the jumping on the Hub. When hooked up directly to the Beat Buddy, the Hub will jump scenes regardless of whether the Beat Buddy is playing or not. When hooked up with the laptop and set to MIDI Thru, the Hub only jumped when the Beat Buddy was playing (when MIDI Note On/Note Off is being sent), not when it was stopped (when the monitoring program is not picking up anything, but I assume MIDI Beat Clock is still being sent).

(6) I tried various states of "filtering" on the MIDI Monitor program (i.e., filtering out various types of messages), none of which had any influence on the behavior of the Hub. But to be clear I'm not really sure how the monitoring program or its filtering works.

CONCLUSIONS
(1) To the best of my knowledge and experimentation, the Hub is jumping to Scene 0 without any PC or CC messages being sent.

(2) It is slightly ambiguous whether or not the Hub jumps scenes due to MIDI Note On or Note Off messages, because the behavior is different when the monitor is in line. But the monitor says there are none of these messages when the Beat Buddy is stopped, and the Hub will still jump when the Beat Buddy is stopped and directly connected to the Hub.

(3) It is further unclear what other messages the Beat Buddy is sending in its stopped state (I know it is sending MIDI Beat Clock if nothing else).

TL;DR
The Hub is definitely jumping due to something from the Beat Buddy, but the Beat Buddy is not sending a PC 0 message as far as I can tell, which is what the Hub is interpreting.

@gastric - do you have a Mac-based MIDI monitoring program that you recommend?

Thank you very much for taking the time to put this all together. Because I'm unable to replicate your problem with other midi clock devices, we've ordered a BeatBuddy and will try again when it arrives later this week. I feel you on losing your presets, it happened to me once with my M9, and I know it can be a huge headache. I recommend keeping backups secured in a dropbox folder, or something similar and internet-based, so you can access it if need be. The "Erase All Scenes" option in the HUB Manager is essentially the hard reset for the HUB. I look forward to getting to the bottom of this and getting your awesome board working as it should.

 

[Adamixoye]

Thank you very much for taking the time to put this all together. Because I'm unable to replicate your problem with other midi clock devices, we've ordered a BeatBuddy and will try again when it arrives later this week. I feel you on losing your presets, it happened to me once with my M9, and I know it can be a huge headache. I recommend keeping backups secured in a dropbox folder, or something similar and internet-based, so you can access it if need be. The "Erase All Scenes" option in the HUB Manager is essentially the hard reset for the HUB. I look forward to getting to the bottom of this and getting your awesome board working as it should.

Hey @Nathan Navarro---I really appreciate that you guys are putting up with me and looking into this. I feel bad that you spent extra money on it BUT I can imagine that eventually more people than just me will have the SA/Beat Buddy combination and it's worth knowing the compatibility (in addition the Beat Buddy is an awesome pedal if any of you are just messing around). Also, I will definitely be testing more on my own this week with the alternate programs that @gastric and @adamaarts suggested.

To @rsmith601's point I know the Beat Buddy should be sending some MIDI when it is not playing---at a minimum it is sending MIDI Beat Clock and something, I'm not sure what, which can inform the Pigtronix Infinity of the time signature (I asked the question, for a completely unrelated reason, on their message boards and no one answered---but their "in the trenches" programmers aren't really active there the way SA's guys are here). The question of whether it is sending anything "non-compliant" I suppose is an open question, I won't assume anything one way or another on that---I'm just really sure it's not sending a PC or CC message, and if I'm wrong about that, then there are two different MIDI monitoring programs that have some 'splaining to do.

 

[Dark Barn]

Hey SA folks! I have a Reflex and I've done all the easy steps to integrate it into my pedalboard, and it works quite nicely.

Any timeline on when the software editor will be available? Will user be able to keep the Reflex active and in-line when connected to the editor? I would like to be able to test changes in real time, myself, and hope the answer is yes. I feel like some of the LFO sweep ranges need to be tuned differently based on their shape to achieve the results I want, and it needs to be done by ear. I can do it ok with the hardware editor but every time I do it I always think about how nice a software editor would be.

Either way thanks for the nice piece of gear and good luck ahead.

 

[Adamixoye]

Hey SA folks! I have a Reflex and I've done all the easy steps to integrate it into my pedalboard, and it works quite nicely.

Any timeline on when the software editor will be available? Will user be able to keep the Reflex active and in-line when connected to the editor? I would like to be able to test changes in real time, myself, and hope the answer is yes. I feel like some of the LFO sweep ranges need to be tuned differently based on their shape to achieve the results I want, and it needs to be done by ear. I can do it ok with the hardware editor but every time I do it I always think about how nice a software editor would be.

Either way thanks for the nice piece of gear and good luck ahead.

I'm really looking forward to the user-created LFOs.

 

[benevan]

Any timeline on when the software editor will be available? Will user be able to keep the Reflex active and in-line when connected to the editor? I would like to be able to test changes in real time, myself, and hope the answer is yes. I feel like some of the LFO sweep ranges need to be tuned differently based on their shape to achieve the results I want, and it needs to be done by ear. I can do it ok with the hardware editor but every time I do it I always think about how nice a software editor would be.

I was just going to post about this as well.

Also, what is the status of the USB software editor for the Vertigo?


On a similar note, I hooked the Vertigo up to the Hub and still no dice, same issue that I posted about 2 months ago. What is the status for hub compatibility of the Vertigo and possibly the Reflex?

SA advertises full midi support with the Vertigo and 1series but that requires the Hub. C'mon guys, I know SA is busy releasing new products, but it sure would be nice to see full as-advertised functionality from the new products that have already been released...

 

[rsmith601]

Very good point on the One Series and MIDI and scene support. We need to address this with urgency. I think we can provide a release of Hub firmware that will allow for MIDI and scene support for the new pedals in the near future. Will this be helpful?

Updating the Hub Manager software to fully integrate the One Series pedals is a big project. Obviously we will support this.

The software editor for Reflex is not on the fast track at the moment. Demand for it is isolated, making it very hard to prioritize.

The Vertigo editor is in a similar category. Very small audience looking to play with it.....and lots of work on our side to productize it.

 

[Adamixoye]

The software editor for Reflex is not on the fast track at the moment. Demand for it is isolated, making it very hard to prioritize.

Something that allows editing of the user LFO---similar to @benevan's point about accessing all of the advertised features---would be nice. Beyond that, everything else (as I understand it) can be done from the pedal itself, so as nice as full Hub Manager integration (or a standalone program) would be for organizing and editing presets, it's not as urgent.

 

[benevan]

Very good point on the One Series and MIDI and scene support. We need to address this with urgency. I think we can provide a release of Hub firmware that will allow for MIDI and scene support for the new pedals in the near future. Will this be helpful?

Updating the Hub Manager software to fully integrate the One Series pedals is a big project. Obviously we will support this.

Hub scene support verses Hub editor/Manager software, are these 2 different things? I would think that the Vertigo could be edited within the hub manager like the SB2 units, but you could be suggesting that the vertigo could only be added to hub scenes?

The software editor for Reflex is not on the fast track at the moment. Demand for it is isolated, making it very hard to prioritize.

At this price point for an expression pedal, it is hard to prioritize? The Reflex USB editor is important as it should simplify editing for presets. I have barely scratched the surface of the Reflex capability as I am not very comfortable with the interface on the unit itself. I have read the manual and watched the youtube vids, but for me, PC based editing is the preferred method. If the USB editor was not mentioned or alluded to in the marketing material/manual, then too-bad-so-sad, but that is not the case. This feature should be available at or near release.

The Vertigo editor is in a similar category. Very small audience looking to play with it.....and lots of work on our side to productize it.

I can understand this position for the Vertigo since there is an editor available in another format. However, does this mean that you will not release a USB editor or it is just at the bottom of the priority list and will eventually be released once the other major projects are completed?


While I am on topic, will the other 1series products have Hub compatibility at release? Will USB editors be released for those items as well as the Vertigo? What type of deep editing will be available for the Nemesis: app like the 1series; hub compatibility; USB editor? Will the Soleman have any type of PC or app editing capability? Will these features be available at release or will we have to wait like with the Reflex and Vertigo?

 

[Edmang]

Lack of software support is disappointing. Do have a few of the new SA pedals on my gas list, like the Reflex, Vertigo and the Bass distortion. Other items on my list will be prioritized ahead of them until the software is available.

 

[nshuman]

Just wanted to report that the SB2 pedals play SUPER nice with the Meatbox reissue

 

[Hoss Groovealot]

I think the SB2 pedals are great. The deep editing future of the One Series pedals is cool, but I am just not a fan of having to edit on a PC or phone. That is the reason I don't own the Markbass Supersynth that I want. SA, I hope you don't abandon the Soundblox 2 series just yet. I want some more of them.

 

[rsmith601]

I will address some specific questions, but I want to be very open and transparent about our decisions when it comes to priorities.

This is the challenge we are working with:
The Hub and the Neuro App are cutting edge and on the verge of being unique (I know there is some other stuff out there, but the feature sets are much more basic). These things give the One Series Pedals ($149) the power of $500 to $900 effects, rack units, etc in a very small package. Interestingly, the reviews so far on the Vertigo is that it is a steal and one of the best tremolo pedals even.....even before the Hub and Neuro are taken into account. That is all the good stuff, and I know it does not stop there.

The first thing that is hard is the firmware inside of each One Series pedal. Ensuring that it works with MIDI over USB, MIDI via Hub, Exp, Hot Hand, Reflex, Tap Tempo, MIDI clock, Hub scenes, Neuro in all of its forms and all of its behind the curtain complexity, Hub Manager, the USB software editor is an absolutely massive challenge. So much harder than SB2, which was so much harder than SBPro. SB1 looks like a joke these days! Each new product is a huge task.

The second thing that is hard is for each new One Series pedal we need:

Updated iOS Neuro App
Updated Android Neuro App
Updated Hub Firmware
Updated Hub Manager Software for PC
Updated Hub Manager Software for Mac
A totally new piece of software called the USB Software editor that is specific to each One Series pedal - for PC
Same as above for Mac

That is a big list. We are mainly hardware, algorithm and firmware oriented. Someone noted a while back that we are slowly becoming a software company....and that is not all wrong.

My hope it that we can keep plugging away at our pile of work and knock things off one after another. I hope we have demonstrated that we have the technical chops to execute. The thing we lack is bandwidth.

Neuro App Support:
This is the most important thing for us to have for the One Series. One Series sales are essential to fund our engineering development work. This is a top priority.

Nemesis:
While Hot Hand and the BEF Pro gave us a nice period of sales growth, we need to replace them with a new source of sales growth. The One Series trem and modulators (and eventually distortion) are one component, and Nemesis is the other. This is a top priority.

Hub Support for One Series:
Based on this thread, we just released an update to the Hub firmware (1.14). This will allow the addition of One Series pedals to scenes, as well as MIDI and expression. No, you will not be able to go in and edit the pedals. Adding this functionality to the Hub Manager software is very complicated and will not likely happen until we do it for Nemesis (6 to 10 weeks from now is my estimate).

USB Software Editor:
This is a tool to deeply edit effects. It is really more of an engineering development tool. It is hard to imagine that more than 50 people would use this for Vertigo. With Nemesis it might be more, but we are increasing the parameter controls on the Neuro app for this, so it may not be so interesting or important. Note that when the Hub manager has support for One Series, you can have access to all the same stuff as you get to via the Neuro App.

Also, remember that any DAW such as Abelton can control the One Series pedals over USB via MIDI today. It all works.

Reflex Editor:
As noted, core functionality of this product does not need software. This is not a top priority. I am aware that there are some who want it.

Soleman Editor:
This product must have an editor. It will accompany the release of the product.

I hope all of this is helpful. As noted, we are a very small engineering oriented company trying to innovate at the very highest levels. We are deeply appreciative of the faith so many of you have had with us as we role out new products and new concepts. Feedback is always welcome!

 

[rsmith601]

By the way, the Beat Buddy arrived with the MIDI special cable. We will look into why it does not behave nicely.

Why did we not just do simple analog pedals? I could be playing golf and drinking beer!

 

[Farrin D]

I think the SB2 pedals are great. The deep editing future of the One Series pedals is cool, but I am just not a fan of having to edit on a PC or phone. That is the reason I don't own the Markbass Supersynth that I want. SA, I hope you don't abandon the Soundblox 2 series just yet. I want some more of them.

I second that! I really love the SB2 pedals, and really hope you guys go back to them after the One Series. Maybe alternate between releases ?

I do like the idea of the editor as well though with the hub, which has been handy with scene creation. It has made me leave multi effects units.

 

[rsmith601]

I think the SB2 pedals are great. The deep editing future of the One Series pedals is cool, but I am just not a fan of having to edit on a PC or phone. That is the reason I don't own the Markbass Supersynth that I want. SA, I hope you don't abandon the Soundblox 2 series just yet. I want some more of them.

We thought they were great too when we launched the line. Sadly, 75% of the world think they are way too complicated. Another 75% think they are ugly. We plan to have the One Series be our simple line and the SB 2 be our complicated line as we move forward.

 

[nshuman]

By the way, the Beat Buddy arrived with the MIDI special cable. We will look into why it does not behave nicely.

Why did we not just do simple analog pedals? I could be playing golf and drinking beer!

Why would anyone want to play golf?

 

[Hoss Groovealot]

I think marketing is a big issue. They don't sell your pedals at Guitar Center so most people don't know what they are. Hell, I found SA by accident by somehow stumbling onto a Nathan Navaro video on Youtube a year ago.

 

[ilansgroove]

We thought they were great too when we launched the line. Sadly, 75% of the world think they are way too complicated. Another 75% think they are ugly. We plan to have the One Series be our simple line and the SB 2 be our complicated line as we move forward.

well , they are ugly ... and they are complicated .... but i am too , and my wife still sticks around .. so i guess i'm doing something right
my Manta and my Orbital Modulator are also staying on my board !!!

I almost thought of replacing my Orbital with the Lunar phaser, but since i figured out all the problems i had with the software, and tweaking around and finding cool sounds .... i decided that the Orbital is staying!!

 

[Adamixoye]

Reflex Editor:
As noted, core functionality of this product does not need software. This is not a top priority. I am aware that there are some who want it.

All very reasonable Roger. If I could follow up on this one point, though, the Reflex core functionality may be there but you do have one face-of-the-pedal setting (user LFO) which is basically useless until some sort of editor is available. How simple of a project would it be to provide just that---even a simple program that converts a user text file or something like that into the proper LFO "table" (I think this is how Jesse referred to it) that the Reflex takes, and then a very simple program that simply updates the table in the Reflex when connected by USB?

 

[Edmang]

I think marketing is a big issue. They don't sell your pedals at Guitar Center so most people don't know what they are. Hell, I found SA by accident by somehow stumbling onto a Nathan Navaro video on Youtube a year ago.

I agree about availability at various outlets. They are not available at Sweetwater where I do most of my purchasing. If it wasn't for TB would never have found out about them.