Source Audio Sorcerers Society (S.A.S.S) Part 3

[pbfrog]

-Is this going to screw up how I use my C4 with the Hub as just a MIDI Host (Like, do I have to unplug the connection when I set my board up at every show so the hub doesn't 'scan the C4' or try to fuss with what I have setup on that pedal).


No. The hub won't change anything on the AS. It will start up with whatever scene was last used.

-Will I be able to use CC from a controller to scroll preset-up--preset down or is that kind of CC not supported.

No. The hub doesn't respond to CC messages.

-Right now 'in the field' edits I do for levels, etc. in the C4 I can save on the pedal by holding down the footswitch. Will I be able to at least function similarly with the AfterShock, or am I relegated to having to use the editor to get things done. Or because the presets are held on the Hub do I have to use another process.

You can do that for the 6 on-board memory slots, but it won't change the parameter in a saved scene. You may be able to map CC commands to change between the 6 on-board slots. I've never tried it.

 

[pbfrog]

Like GMC said, you can build MIDI patches to send PC messages to the hub on one channel to load the Aftershock sound and CC messages on another channel to the C4 to load its sound.

 

[rsmith601]

So the hub has 'slots' for me to save AfterShock presets to? That's sort of a bummer, though I can handle it by just building 'scenes' for the AfterShock alone and think of the Hub as the AS, though it adds to some complexity with my controllers and isn't the most graceful.

-Is this going to screw up how I use my C4 with the Hub as just a MIDI Host (Like, do I have to unplug the connection when I set my board up at every show so the hub doesn't 'scan the C4' or try to fuss with what I have setup on that pedal).

-Will I be able to use CC from a controller to scroll preset-up--preset down or is that kind of CC not supported.

-Right now 'in the field' edits I do for levels, etc. in the C4 I can save on the pedal by holding down the footswitch. Will I be able to at least function similarly with the AfterShock, or am I relegated to having to use the editor to get things done. Or because the presets are held on the Hub do I have to use another process.

Way easier for many controllers when people are layering in MIDI effects just to drop in a new Channel & whatever PC or CC you need if you're working with patches you already have and use.

The phrasing on the website:

"The Aftershock also features full MIDI capability and simplicity when coupled with the Neuro Hub"
- Preset Saving — Save up to 128 effect presets."

Is a bit weak when it comes to how it works given the C4 also gives me 128 presets when using my hub as a host. But not needing to use the Hub to store and save them. That should probably be revised given how some of the other pedals function.



Time to think about a round of upgrades (AS2 etc., ?) you've got a singular series of pedals that now handles MIDI differently from pedal to pedal which is really mix and match in terms of core feature sets. When it comes to my board which has other MIDI pedals on it, it amounts to me (and others like me) having to use several different schemes of control from a pseudo-MIDI proprietary communications thing to standard commands.

Making the C4 awesome was job 1. I could have made it like Aftershock, and that would have been a missed opportunity. Note that making C4 awesome also broke full compatibility with the Hub, because the C4 stores like 700 parameters per preset. This was inconceivable a few years ago. Fixing that was very difficult, but we did it. The Aftershock, when released, compared to things with one preset and no MIDI. It's only in the context of the C4 that it seems out of step. Again, I think making C4 and ignoring the format of previous pedals was correct.

 

[rsmith601]

In reference to BurningSkies above, the Aftershock is a pre C4 One Series. The hardware on the C4 is slightly tweeked version of what's on the Aftershock. The C4 has additional memory so that it can store 128 patches. Where as the humble Aftershock has only space for 6.

I really like the way midi is implemented on the Hub and C4...accessing the internal 128 preset library via midi. The Aftershock (along with all the other small one series units) can connect in the same way but only has 6 internal slots. The hub does allow the saving of 128 scenes on it's self.
The hub does allow multiple pedals to save multiple settings in one scene. But you can't access each pedal interdependently from that scene.

I currently have only Aftershock and C4 connected to my Hub. I use the hub to access the 128 patches on my C4 via midi as a pass through...a bit like a router. But I use my 128 hub scenes purely for my Aftershock. So for me, Midi 1 CC's call up the hub scenes (which are my Aftershock scenes) and Midi 7 CC's are calling up my C4 patches. This effectively makes my Hub scenes dedicated to my Aftershock, which is working well. I just need to remember to hook up my C4 via USB to edit the patches and for the Aftershock I have to hook up my Hub.

At some point it would be wise for SA to unify the hardware but we wouldn't have the C4 if the hardware wasn't tweaked. Can you imagine having only 6 patches on a C4 until the hub update last week was launched? I far prefer using the hub as a pass through...allowing access to the patches on the pedal, but each pedal therefore would need more than 6 patches going forwards. It would be a lot easier for SA to support and produce new pedals for us too.

I should have read this! Very good summary.

 

[BurningSkies]

In reference to BurningSkies above, the Aftershock is a pre C4 One Series. The hardware on the C4 is slightly tweeked version of what's on the Aftershock. The C4 has additional memory so that it can store 128 patches. Where as the humble Aftershock has only space for 6.

I really like the way midi is implemented on the Hub and C4...accessing the internal 128 preset library via midi. The Aftershock (along with all the other small one series units) can connect in the same way but only has 6 internal slots. The hub does allow the saving of 128 scenes on it's self.
The hub does allow multiple pedals to save multiple settings in one scene. But you can't access each pedal interdependently from that scene.

I currently have only Aftershock and C4 connected to my Hub. I use the hub to access the 128 patches on my C4 via midi as a pass through...a bit like a router. But I use my 128 hub scenes purely for my Aftershock. So for me, Midi 1 CC's call up the hub scenes (which are my Aftershock scenes) and Midi 7 CC's are calling up my C4 patches. This effectively makes my Hub scenes dedicated to my Aftershock, which is working well. I just need to remember to hook up my C4 via USB to edit the patches and for the Aftershock I have to hook up my Hub.

At some point it would be wise for SA to unify the hardware but we wouldn't have the C4 if the hardware wasn't tweaked. Can you imagine having only 6 patches on a C4 until the hub update last week was launched? I far prefer using the hub as a pass through...allowing access to the patches on the pedal, but each pedal therefore would need more than 6 patches going forwards. It would be a lot easier for SA to support and produce new pedals for us too.

This is pretty much where I'm at on this I would guess. C4 is 'hosted' by the Hub (though I very well can move it to a separate host since I have Disaster Audio micro-ghost for that too. Then I'll use the Hub for whatever I need to to call patches to use them together (or not).

My real plan was to use the C4 in the sub-loop of the AfterShock, then sounds where I'm using the C4's internal drive/distortion options or have 'clean' I'd just use a clean patch on the AS. But really I planned on using the AS to 'drive' the C4 for various envelopes where I was feeling a bit unfulfilled with the tones of the distortion engine on the C4. Then in the one or two places where I'm looking for something other than 'clean' bass I can have a patch or two for that. I'd rather edit in MIDI commands rather than rebuild patches into scene format.

-Is this going to screw up how I use my C4 with the Hub as just a MIDI Host (Like, do I have to unplug the connection when I set my board up at every show so the hub doesn't 'scan the C4' or try to fuss with what I have setup on that pedal).


No. The hub won't change anything on the AS. It will start up with whatever scene was last used.

-Will I be able to use CC from a controller to scroll preset-up--preset down or is that kind of CC not supported.

No. The hub doesn't respond to CC messages.

-Right now 'in the field' edits I do for levels, etc. in the C4 I can save on the pedal by holding down the footswitch. Will I be able to at least function similarly with the AfterShock, or am I relegated to having to use the editor to get things done. Or because the presets are held on the Hub do I have to use another process.

You can do that for the 6 on-board memory slots, but it won't change the parameter in a saved scene. You may be able to map CC commands to change between the 6 on-board slots. I've never tried it.

So 128 slots without the ability to scroll. Hrrrm. Ok, that will make it hard to actually utilize options to test in a writing situation with the band. What I've done with the C4 is to load a handful variants of a patch & try them in the band context to identify the one that works or is closest to working. I'm going to have to think through this...there has to be a way to handle it.

Lack of ability adjust/save is another challenge. I have a feeling I'll be building a full second set of patches from the ones I have now, then retain a bank of the 'old ones' as fail-safes on stage. At least now my C4 patches have been dialed in across a number of shows and stage situations. The first month I had my C4 on the board I was adjusting the output level incrementally to get the different patches to balance correctly.

Making the C4 awesome was job 1. I could have made it like Aftershock, and that would have been a missed opportunity. Note that making C4 awesome also broke full compatibility with the Hub, because the C4 stores like 700 parameters per preset. This was inconceivable a few years ago. Fixing that was very difficult, but we did it. The Aftershock, when released, compared to things with one preset and no MIDI. It's only in the context of the C4 that it seems out of step. Again, I think making C4 and ignoring the format of previous pedals was correct.

You're a victim of your success. But that's why I mentioned the thought of an AS v2. By comparison the older pedals now look hobbled in their use now since the C4 has more connectivity, etc.

 

[N4860]

This is pretty much where I'm at on this I would guess. C4 is 'hosted' by the Hub (though I very well can move it to a separate host since I have Disaster Audio micro-ghost for that too. Then I'll use the Hub for whatever I need to to call patches to use them together (or not).

My real plan was to use the C4 in the sub-loop of the AfterShock, then sounds where I'm using the C4's internal drive/distortion options or have 'clean' I'd just use a clean patch on the AS. But really I planned on using the AS to 'drive' the C4 for various envelopes where I was feeling a bit unfulfilled with the tones of the distortion engine on the C4. Then in the one or two places where I'm looking for something other than 'clean' bass I can have a patch or two for that. I'd rather edit in MIDI commands rather than rebuild patches into scene format.



So 128 slots without the ability to scroll. Hrrrm. Ok, that will make it hard to actually utilize options to test in a writing situation with the band. What I've done with the C4 is to load a handful variants of a patch & try them in the band context to identify the one that works or is closest to working. I'm going to have to think through this...there has to be a way to handle it.

Lack of ability adjust/save is another challenge. I have a feeling I'll be building a full second set of patches from the ones I have now, then retain a bank of the 'old ones' as fail-safes on stage. At least now my C4 patches have been dialed in across a number of shows and stage situations. The first month I had my C4 on the board I was adjusting the output level incrementally to get the different patches to balance correctly.





You're a victim of your success. But that's why I mentioned the thought of an AS v2. By comparison the older pedals now look hobbled in their use now since the C4 has more connectivity, etc.

Can you just save your presets for the AS (or C4) on your cloud in the Neuro app and then have your phone hooked up during practice to load different patches for testing purposes?

 

[BurningSkies]

Can you just save your presets for the AS (or C4) on your cloud in the Neuro app and then have your phone hooked up during practice to load different patches for testing purposes?

I think having the C4 nested into the loop of the Aftershock makes that not functional since it uses the 2nd set of I/O... It works for the C4 in practice (though I can scroll patches with my DMC with the C4).

 

[fivestringgecko]

I think having the C4 nested into the loop of the Aftershock makes that not functional since it uses the 2nd set of I/O... It works for the C4 in practice (though I can scroll patches with my DMC with the C4).

Sounds like you need another DMC...? One for the C4, and one for the Hub to control scenes on the Aftershock.

5sg.

 

[Gibs210]

I think having the C4 nested into the loop of the Aftershock makes that not functional since it uses the 2nd set of I/O... It works for the C4 in practice (though I can scroll patches with my DMC with the C4).

Get a trs to dual mono Y cable, connect the trs portion to the aftershock, the tip connection to the c4 and the ring connection to your phone.

Before I got hired, I was starting work on a video series to show how the one series pedals and hub and soleman all worked, would be each pedal individually as well as combined into a number of control scenarios. Once I got hired, all the extra time for that kinda went out the window so I haven’t really even touched that project since. I need to put a few together at least regarding the hub, as that seems to be something a lot of people struggle to grasp as well being hard to explain in text. I may try to setup something similar to your setup and post it when I get a chance.

 

[BurningSkies]

Sounds like you need another DMC...? One for the C4, and one for the Hub to control scenes on the Aftershock.

5sg.

What I'd really like to do is figure out what commands I can use to 'scene up' and 'scene down' then apply them through the ES-5. I'd basically set up a bank that has those switches next to each other and be able to scroll.

While I have all my MIDI pedals on my DMC-3, it doesn't recognize my ES-5 (intentionally) and it interfaces:

1) C4
2) Timeline delay
3) Atmosphere reverb
4) Future Impact

If push came to shove, I could move the Atmosphere off the DMC and use that slot to for Hub/AfterShock but from what people are saying here, it doesn't seem like that will want to 'scroll' either if there are no commands for that.

 

[BurningSkies]

Get a trs to dual mono Y cable, connect the trs portion to the aftershock, the tip connection to the c4 and the ring connection to your phone.

Before I got hired, I was starting work on a video series to show how the one series pedals and hub and soleman all worked, would be each pedal individually as well as combined into a number of control scenarios. Once I got hired, all the extra time for that kinda went out the window so I haven’t really even touched that project since. I need to put a few together at least regarding the hub, as that seems to be something a lot of people struggle to grasp as well being hard to explain in text. I may try to setup something similar to your setup and post it when I get a chance.

Easy enough. I may have one around anyway somewhere. Good to know that would work.

The benefits of running the C4 in the AS loop seem like they're pretty solid:
-Choose to drop the C4 in front or behind the Aftershock's distortion
-Use the Clean-Hi-Cut and Low-Cut controls to come close to simulate a crossed over clean low/effected high. (I played with this last night since no one seemed to know if the Low-Cut affected the clean or not...from what I can tell it doesn't, only the signal path to the distortion.
-Choose a 'clean' non-distortion sound when using the C4 and not wanting any drive.
-Also have additional control by way of the parametric EQ on board.
-Have more control and flexibility with feeding harmonic content to C4.

 

[BenHack]

Easy enough. I may have one around anyway somewhere. Good to know that would work.

The benefits of running the C4 in the AS loop seem like they're pretty solid:
-Choose to drop the C4 in front or behind the Aftershock's distortion
-Use the Clean-Hi-Cut and Low-Cut controls to come close to simulate a crossed over clean low/effected high. (I played with this last night since no one seemed to know if the Low-Cut affected the clean or not...from what I can tell it doesn't, only the signal path to the distortion.
-Choose a 'clean' non-distortion sound when using the C4 and not wanting any drive.
-Also have additional control by way of the parametric EQ on board.
-Have more control and flexibility with feeding harmonic content to C4.

I’m interested in hearing how your experiment using the aftershock loop goes. I’ve got an ES5 controlling my pedals so am curious how you are planning/able to place the C4 before or after the Aftershock. I like the idea and haven t started requiring my board to include the C4 yet.

Cheers

Ben

 

[BurningSkies]

I’m interested in hearing how your experiment using the aftershock loop goes. I’ve got an ES5 controlling my pedals so am curious how you are planning/able to place the C4 before or after the Aftershock. I like the idea and haven t started requiring my board to include the C4 yet.

Cheers

Ben

From the manual:

External Loop Pre-Effect: The external loop options allow an external effect (whether a Source Audio product or a third-party product) to be connected to the Aftershock’s INPUT 2 and OUTPUT 2. When the Aftershock is bypassed, the external effect will be out of the circuit. When the Aftershock is enabled, the external effect will be put in series with the Aftershock’s distortion circuit. OUTPUT 2 should connect to the external effect’s input, and the external effect’s output should connect to INPUT 2.

In Pre-Effect mode, the guitar signal will go to the external effect first, and then the Aftershock’s distortion circuit second.

In Post-Effect mode, the guitar signal will go to the Aftershock’s distortion circuit first, and then to the external effect second.


So basically, you can put a 'something in the second I/O. You take the Output2 -> pedal -> Input2. from there, you can by patch designate whether the inserted pedal is pre-effect or post-effect.

If the pedal in the loop is bypassed you'd just get nothing before or after as you're 'true-bypassing' through the C4, so it's just a distortion/fuzz/OD. Or you can just manually set the I/O selection to mono input1-mono-output1

-If you want to use the C4 by itself, you need the AfterShock on, but can set it for the clean setting and not get any distortion/od/fuzz.

You could certainly drop the AS/C4 into a ES-5 loop and run the pair wherever you'd like with your other effects, or you could parallel the pair with another something. Or, if you're like me and most of your effects fall in the same place in your signal chain, don't put the pair in a loop at all and just trigger on/off with MIDI.

 

[Geddy Claypool]

I'm fairly sure this has been asked and answered already, but can a MIDI host controller like the DMC.micro select presets on the Spectrum/C4 even while the pedal is switched off? I want to be able to select a preset before a given song while the pedal is off, and then activate the pedal as necessary. This is possible, right?

 

[dalo]

I'm fairly sure this has been asked and answered already, but can a MIDI host controller like the DMC.micro select presets on the Spectrum/C4 even while the pedal is switched off? I want to be able to select a preset before a given song while the pedal is off, and then activate the pedal as necessary. This is possible, right?

Kind of. You can hold the left footswitch of the dmc.micro to change the bypass state of the C4.

As you scroll through the dmc.micro, the bypass state as indicated by an led on the dmc.micro will determine whether the presets turn on or off the C4.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Geddy Claypool]

Kind of. You can hold the left footswitch of the dmc.micro to change the bypass state of the C4.

As you scroll through the dmc.micro, the bypass state as indicated by an led on the dmc.micro will determine whether the presets turn on or off the C4.

Hope that makes sense.

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow. I'm fairly new to the wonderful world of MIDI

Is it possible to change presets without the pedal being activated?

 

[dalo]

I sold my dmc.micro so I'm going off of memory.

There's a blue led on the left of the pedal that you control by holding the left footswitch while in device mode.

If it's on, every preset you scroll through will turn the C4 on. Similarly, if it is off, every preset you scroll through will turn the C4 off.

So lets say the C4 is off, the dmc.micro is set to preset 1 and you want to switch to preset 2 without turning on the C4. Lets also say that the dmc.micro has that blue led on.

You would:
1. Hold the left footswitch of the dmc.micro to turn the bypass state to OFF (the blue light turns off)
2. Tap the right footswitch to scroll up to preset 2
3. Step on the C4 footswitch when you want to turn it on.

Now lets say midsong, you want to switch back to preset 1 while keeping the C4 on.

you would:
1. Hold the left footswitch of the dmc.micro to turn the bypass state to ON
2. Tap the left footswitch to scroll down to preset 1

 

[coyoteboy]

So jonesing for C4 obvs, but i grabbed a used True Spring to tide me over?? Up to three!

 

[Annette]

Here is another example of not only the usability of the C4 in a (particularly EDM) band context but especially its great tracking and envelope sensitivity. Tehe. I think I'm playing (part of) that lick in 3 different octaves over the course of this example.
Using Thehook's Berlin preset for the C4 and Nemesis stock digital delay with high pass filter, with a 5 string Ibanez BTB and LaBella nylon tapes.

 

[N4860]

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow. I'm fairly new to the wonderful world of MIDI

Is it possible to change presets without the pedal being activated?

I have a Soleman and I can do that no problem. I would be surprised if the dmc.micro can't do it. Basically just create a scene and have the bypass engaged on the pedal when you save the scene. That way when it loads that scene the default state will be bypassed but the parameters of your setting should still be loaded.

I've been using this for my delay settings on my nemesis so that I can more easily use the tap tempo. I have my delay settings loaded but the scene is saved with the nemesis bypassed. That way I can load the scene, still have my clean tone going, and then tap a tempo and flick it off and it will by in sync.