Speaker size v. Tone: I don't hear any correlation

[mongo2]

The wood issue has been discussed incessantly here, and everyone knows the wood has nothing to do with the tone of a bass.

Anyone who thinks that's true is misinformed.

 

[dvh]

Anyone who thinks that's true is misinformed.

and............... IT'S ON....................!!

 

[rpsands]

I use Photoshop to pursue my other sometimes paying avocation... It does what I need and want it to. I don't need to understand how it works...

You know enough about Photoshop to know:

1. the requirements of the host system for installing it

2. it does not run on a microwave

3. putting it on a bigger monitor does not make it go faster

 

[johnk_10]

The wood issue has been discussed incessantly here, and everyone knows the wood has nothing to do with the tone of a bass.

ignorance is bliss.

 

[BurningSkies]

Bill, Bill, Bill. The wood issue has been discussed incessantly here, and everyone knows the wood has nothing to do with the tone of a bass. Now you're telling us wood makes a difference in cabs?

What gauge line are you using today?

 

[michaelgilleran]

Jw, how could the material use NOT affect the tons of the bass

 

[Passinwind]

What gauge line are you using today?

Link Removed

 

[dvh]

You know enough about Photoshop to know:

1. the requirements of the host system for installing it

2. it does not run on a microwave

3. putting it on a bigger monitor does not make it go faster

Yes, but I don't need to know the details of the logarithm that behind the saturation slider....

 

[BurningSkies]

Link Removed

Nice one. At least Munji is strictly catch and release. His hooks have no barbs.

 

[azureblue]

from servo driven 20" (?) to 8", and combinations, multiples and weird cabinets, different woods. Even two VOTT A7's at one point... I had roadies... Oh yeah, and two SVT 810's that I got convinced to replace the speakers with JBL 10"s. Can you say dangerously heavy and a really bad idea?

The best sound I had was from what was essentially a remake of WestLake Studio monitors- 2 cabs w/ a JBL 550 horn and two Gauss 15"s, each cabinet 10 cubic feet. 1200 watts turned about a third of the way up.

But the sound I loved the most came from a Kustom 2-15" tuck and roll w/ Altecs, later JBL. Lo-Fi, but warm smooth bass that stayed down on the bottom.

My two cents is Hi-Fi does not always work for live bass amps- you may have hi-fi, but where (on stage), and is it really the sound you want? And what you hear when you are standing close the cabinet is not what the audience hears. I loved my W 18", but up close it had no low end or top end, but out there, wow. The 15's had more punch and filled out the stage nicely but I thought 10's had a more consistent sound, measured by proximity to the cabinet. Really loved the Bose columns in the store, but they are no good for live.

BTW can anybody say why Leo F chose those skinny boxes for his bass cabinets? What were they 14" deep? I had several 2-12's and single and dual 15's. I never liked the sound though, but I loved the D-140's in the 15 boxes.

 

[rpsands]

Yes, but I don't need to know the details of the logarithm that behind the saturation slider....

I don't know if I would call that analogous to speaker size and tone, because you're not trying use the wrong senses to make judgments.

When you use the saturation slider, you look at the results and see if it looks right. What people care about is that it looks right.

When people look at a speaker and try to figure out how it sounds based on how it looks, it's kind of like you sticking your ear up to the screen to tell if the saturation slider is working right.

What matters with bass is that it SOUNDS RIGHT, not what it looks like.

 

[dvh]

I don't know if I would call that analogous to speaker size and tone, because you're not trying use the wrong senses to make judgments.

When you use the saturation slider, you look at the results and see if it looks right. What people care about is that it looks right.

When people look at a speaker and try to figure out how it sounds based on how it looks, it's kind of like you sticking your ear up to the screen to tell if the saturation slider is working right.

What matters with bass is that it SOUNDS RIGHT, not what it looks like.

The point I’m trying to make (provoked by your statement “…the sad fact is that when it comes to understanding how the tools of their trade actually work most players haven't a clue.&#8221 is that – and I don’t think I’m speaking only for myself – I don’t need to know the intricacies of speaker or cab physics to play something that pleases me and gets the job done…

 

[rpsands]

The point I’m trying to make (provoked by your statement “…the sad fact is that when it comes to understanding how the tools of their trade actually work most players haven't a clue.&#8221 is that – and I don’t think I’m speaking only for myself – I don’t need to know the intricacies of speaker or cab physics to play something that pleases me and gets the job done…

That was Bill's statement actually, but I think he was referring to simple levels of ignorance -- like people using a saturation slider but not knowing what results to expect from it. What does a saturation slider even do to an image? I have no idea, but similarly, most bass players don't know something simple like that turning the bass knob up 3 clicks effectively doubles the amount of power your speakers are going to see at those frequencies.

You don't need to know the physics of cab design to get the job done, but much like a good pro audio engineer will know the dispersion angle of their mains I think a bass player should have a good idea of that characteristic of their bass amp. Much like a pro audio engineer should know where to set their limiters to avoid blowing subs, a bass player should know how high they can turn the knobs on their bass without blowing speakers (hint: the answer is not as simple as "I have a 500 watt amp and a 500 watt cabinet).

Especially when a bass cab is used to provide FOH bass sound, a bass player who is ignorant of basic technical details is at a serious disadvantage.

tl;dr: There are intermediate technical levels between "all I know is what it sounds like when I stand over here" and "I can solder my own amplifier from common household ingredients." A good gigging musician should be in between somewhere.

 

[Kwesi]

That was Bill's statement actually, but I think he was referring to simple levels of ignorance -- like people using a saturation slider but not knowing what results to expect from it. What does a saturation slider even do to an image? I have no idea, but similarly, most bass players don't know something simple like that turning the bass knob up 3 clicks effectively halves doubles the amount of power your speakers are going to see at those frequencies.

You don't need to know the physics of cab design to get the job done, but much like a good pro audio engineer will know the dispersion angle of their mains I think a bass player should have a good idea of that characteristic of their bass amp. Much like a pro audio engineer should know where to set their limiters to avoid blowing subs, a bass player should know how high they can turn the knobs on their bass without blowing speakers (hint: the answer is not as simple as "I have a 500 watt amp and a 500 watt cabinet).

Especially when a bass cab is used to provide FOH bass sound, a bass player who is ignorant of basic technical details is at a serious disadvantage.

tl;dr: There are intermediate technical levels between "all I know is what it sounds like when I stand over here" and "I can solder my own amplifier from common household ingredients." A good gigging musician should be in between somewhere.

+1

 

[billfitzmaurice]

BTW can anybody say why Leo F chose those skinny boxes for his bass cabinets? What were they 14" deep? .

They were 11.5" deep, and the size was arrived at based on trial and error as to what worked best. That's called the empirical design method, and it's how most cabs were designed prior to roughly 1970. With the guitar drivers Fender used as standard issue larger cabs wouldn't have given a better result.

 

[dvh]

That was Bill's statement actually, but I think he was referring to simple levels of ignorance -- like people using a saturation slider but not knowing what results to expect from it. What does a saturation slider even do to an image? I have no idea, but similarly, most bass players don't know something simple like that turning the bass knob up 3 clicks effectively halves doubles the amount of power your speakers are going to see at those frequencies.

You don't need to know the physics of cab design to get the job done, but much like a good pro audio engineer will know the dispersion angle of their mains I think a bass player should have a good idea of that characteristic of their bass amp. Much like a pro audio engineer should know where to set their limiters to avoid blowing subs, a bass player should know how high they can turn the knobs on their bass without blowing speakers (hint: the answer is not as simple as "I have a 500 watt amp and a 500 watt cabinet).

Especially when a bass cab is used to provide FOH bass sound, a bass player who is ignorant of basic technical details is at a serious disadvantage.

tl;dr: There are intermediate technical levels between "all I know is what it sounds like when I stand over here" and "I can solder my own amplifier from common household ingredients." A good gigging musician should be in between somewhere.

Cool

 

[lomo]

That was Bill's statement actually, but I think he was referring to simple levels of ignorance -- like people using a saturation slider but not knowing what results to expect from it. What does a saturation slider even do to an image? I have no idea, but similarly, most bass players don't know something simple like that turning the bass knob up 3 clicks effectively halves doubles the amount of power your speakers are going to see at those frequencies.

You don't need to know the physics of cab design to get the job done, but much like a good pro audio engineer will know the dispersion angle of their mains I think a bass player should have a good idea of that characteristic of their bass amp. Much like a pro audio engineer should know where to set their limiters to avoid blowing subs, a bass player should know how high they can turn the knobs on their bass without blowing speakers (hint: the answer is not as simple as "I have a 500 watt amp and a 500 watt cabinet).

Especially when a bass cab is used to provide FOH bass sound, a bass player who is ignorant of basic technical details is at a serious disadvantage.

tl;dr: There are intermediate technical levels between "all I know is what it sounds like when I stand over here" and "I can solder my own amplifier from common household ingredients." A good gigging musician should be in between somewhere.

'nuther +1

 

[JimmyM]

They were 11.5" deep, and the size was arrived at based on trial and error as to what worked best. That's called the empirical design method, and it's how most cabs were designed prior to roughly 1970. With the guitar drivers Fender used as standard issue larger cabs wouldn't have given a better result.

leo may have been behind the greatest basses in the world, but for some reason his genius didn't translate to amps. they sounded great at low volumes and that was about it. even when ampeg's bass amps weren't as good as the portaflexes, they were still cleaning fender's clock for bass amps.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

My two cents is Hi-Fi does not always work for live bass amps- you may have hi-fi, but where (on stage), and is it really the sound you want?

I would tend to agree. The hi-fi sound probably isn't going to cut through in a band context. However, it's nice to have a power amp and cabinet combination that sounds hi-fi as then you can have full control via the preamp and EQ stage. But that's assuming that the cabinet is reasonably efficient - some hi-fi cabinets take a lot of power to get loud, and until recently sufficient power amp has been heavy. However, it's worth mentioning that the typical hi-fi cabinet at home has a steep drop off below 80 to 100Hz, so hi-fi in that context doesn't have much low bass in it, but the psychoacoustics of loud music are somewhat different.

My personal preference (and I have owned tube amps in the past) is to get my sound with the preamp end of things. Then I can scale it to fit in with FOH or what amps are on stage more flexibly. It's not necessarily the same rich sound as a tube amp, but it is lighter and given the variations of live environments, mixing, etc., it's a reasonable compromise live.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

They were 11.5" deep, and the size was arrived at based on trial and error as to what worked best.

One of the nice thing about cabinets that aren't so deep is that you can carry them by a top handle with one hand in a comfortable position, except that if they are also tall all you end up doing is whacking your ankles with them repeatedly when trying to walk!