Speakers Vertically Stacked

[johnsonabq]

This topic is FULL of tradeoffs.

That's life eh? I'm not sure how important that all is in a small club environment.

PS I do see you have a dog in this fight. GB makes great products too.

 

[Lonnybass]

The USS Lonnybass 2012. The most monstrous system I have ever played, capable of generating seismic activity. Two Fearful 15/6/1s. There is no going back to commercially available bass amplification.

 

[JimmyM]

PS I do see you have a dog in this fight. GB makes great products too.

Andy's really honest. He's not going to tell you something he doesn't believe just to sell gear.

Has anybody paid attention to boundery reflections with vertically stacked cabinets?

Standing out in the audience, with a hard stage, you will have multiple reflections and arrival times from the stage as the boundery. That's the big (potential) negative with vertical arrays.

The positive aspects of a horizontal array (on the deck) is better LF coupling and less interference from boundery reflections BUT the biggest negative is that the summing interference lobes are in the horizontal plane.

This topic is FULL of tradeoffs.

Yep. Nothing is perfect ever in the live performance environment. But I tend to go for what causes the fewest problems for me in the majority of situations, and that's going as vertical as possible. I'll make anything work, though. I've had to use a laid-down 810 a couple times. Hated it but it still worked and I was more unhappy that I couldn't hear it than I was with the sound in the venue. It's nitpicking, sure, but I'd rather know about it and make informed decisions than the years I spent not knowing or caring.

 

[JimWasHere]

It's nitpicking, sure, but I'd rather know about it and make informed decisions than the years I spent not knowing or caring.

+1 This is not a small thing.

 

[johnsonabq]

Andy's really honest. He's not going to tell you something he doesn't believe just to sell gear.

Oh, I'm sure he is. And as an engineer I'm sure he understands the physics of sound better than I ever will. I just wonder how important those considerations are on a small club level.

Yep. Nothing is perfect ever in the live performance environment. But I tend to go for what causes the fewest problems for me in the majority of situations, and that's going as vertical as possible. I'll make anything work, though. I've had to use a laid-down 810 a couple times. Hated it but it still worked and I was more unhappy that I couldn't hear it than I was with the sound in the venue. It's nitpicking, sure, but I'd rather know about it and make informed decisions than the years I spent not knowing or caring.

It's been my experience that my bass amp is providing what the audience hears only in the smallest venues. And in those cases I have one cab on a bar stool. I put the rig off to the side whenever I can if the bass is in the PA. Of course each situation is different.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Has anybody paid attention to boundery reflections with vertically stacked cabinets?

Of course. The superior pattern control of vertical sources minimizes floor and ceiling bounce, not only controlling early reflections but in simple terms putting more sound in the listening area and less on the ground and in the rafters.

That Peavey was not done right. LOL

Not if it wasn't crossed over to a midrange driver.

And the low end didn't develop until half way to the back wall of the club.

The inverse square rule applies to folded horns just as it does to all point sources, with a loss of 6dB per doubling of distance from the source. You didn't hear the lows close to the cab because out of phase reflections off the ceiling and floor (see above) created a null zone where you were standing. Further back in the room the different distance relationships between the cab, the ceiling, the floor, and the listener no longer created a null zone and the bass became evident.

 

[johnsonabq]

Not if it wasn't crossed over to a midrange driver.

And it wasn't. Just an 18 sitting backwards in a folded horn. Anything you heard was reflected off wood first.

The inverse square rule applies to folded horns just as it does to all point sources, with a loss of 6dB per doubling of distance from the source. You didn't hear the lows close to the cab because out of phase reflections off the ceiling and floor (see above) created a null zone where you were standing. Further back in the room the different distance relationships between the cab, the ceiling, the floor, and the listener no longer created a null zone and the bass became evident.

That's for sure. Quite evident. I stopped using that cabinet fast. Went to a couple RH115 from Music Man. Good cabs for the time.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

And it wasn't. Just an 18 sitting backwards in a folded horn. Anything you heard was reflected off wood first.

There's nothing wrong with that. But it was probably based on D.B. Keele's 1977 JBL 'W' horn, which had a specified bandwidth up to 500Hz, to handle the low end of a multi-way PA system. So employed it was a very good cab in its day. As a stand alone bass cab, not so much.

 

[will33]

OP here is wiser than he lets on....

BTW, it was agedhorse who a while back, in a question in another thead, kinda let on they were given designs to work within. With enough digging, I could find it again. Don't mistake this for my biased take on the thing, it wasn't that at all. All that "opinionated", I call it "telling it like it is" stuff is completely of my own doing. The guy is super talented, way more educated than I, and has been super helpful. Genz has one of the greatest philosophies of customer service I've ever seen. Just the more I learn about speakers and sound, the less I like anything that's being pushed on bassists nowdays as the "next greatest thing". It's old technology, there's not much new or revolutionary about it. Just ad terms like "fat", "detailed", "full", "organic", etc......stuff that doesn't mean anything. Anybody who plugs into as SVT knows bass stuff hasn't gotten really much if any better in the last 40 years....just smaller. Just these guys know all the rules, physics/electrical/mechanical laws/theories, they know what is possible and what isn't, what can be done and what can't. Most of them have also being doing this type of stuff for decades...not years. They also know what works in practice and what doesn't and why. It just irks me to know this, albeit my knowledge of it is probably learn in the first 6 months of school, and then see the stuff you see in ads and hear pro's subscribing to this stuff and repeating it, knowing it's just made up.

Some examples........


"This is the speaker enclosure people mean when they say SVT speaker cabinet. It’s all about tone. Other than the color scheme, it is identical to the original SVT-810."
No, it's not. The original 810 was a flatback cabinet that didn't have angled top and bottoms, didn't have a towel bar handle to move it, and came 2 to a set because the original Ampeg 810 bass cabinet used guitar speakers. That's one reason why it sounded so damn good and also why it took 2 of them to handle a 300 watt amp.


" This design offers 1000 watts of output in a compact, easy to transport enclosure. The Edge-Lift handles, rear-mounted casters and rear skid rails make it a breeze to get this 70 lb. cab from stage-to-stage. The cabinet is also available in an 8 ohm version (GB 410T-UB-8)."

No, it doesn't offer 1000 watts of output....it doesn't even offer 1. I doubt it could even handle a real 1000 watts of input...at least not for any length of time.




"Neo series cabinets offer high performance and feather weight portability. Featuring GK’s Paragon cast-frame Neodymium loudspeakers, they provide high power output at a fraction of the weight of traditional designs. There is plenty of definition in the highs and mids and abundant punchy low end. Special bracing has been incorporated to eliminate standing waves while providing rock solid structural support to reduce cabinet resonance. All models feature high quality horns, black Tolex, custom interlocking corners, lightweight poplar construction and GK’s innovative Horn Bi-Amp System. The Neo 410 includes nickle plated removable casters."

What's this special bracing that eliminates standing waves? Making the panel stiffer now eliminates standing waves? Wierd. I though the standing waves are still there due to dimensions inside the box. If they mean stiffer panels somehow enhances the sound ( which it does ) why don't they advertise their "fully lines enclosures using the latest in open-cell foam technology ( which is old stuff but it still wouldn't technically be BS ). Their MB series products are made of stuff that vibrates apart after some real use and doesn't have any lining at all. Maybe the neo series does, but they don't say it because they cheap out on that part elsewhere.



"Bassists, it’s time to punch through the mix! RH450 is here to give bassists a voice. From the moment you experience its sounds, the raw power, and its many amazing features you realize that the bass team at TC Electronic has delivered what you as a bass player have always wanted: an amp system without compromise."

Pfft. Here's an amp that supposedly has "raw power" and is "without compromise", yet is lucky to give you 250 digitally processed modeled,sound effect, pedal in a box, "raw power" watts when it's advertised as a 450 watt amp because it ' sounds like one '.



"The BR series cabinets incorporate very efficient Low Frequency drivers delivering accurate tone with high output. Expect a deep resonate bass from these systems along with a tight, punchy, slap & pop high-end. Extended mid range also makes your bass sound alive."

According to these people, no matter if it's a 210, 810, 115 or whatever, "extended mid range also makes my bass sound "alive"". Cool, what does that tell me? Either a bunch of different designs all have the cool midrange, or they're full of it.....hmm....which seems more likely?



"Designed for heavy-duty touring, the VB-810 cabinet is the logical choice for a companion cabinet for either the Peavey VB-3 bass head or Tour Series bass head. With 4 separate 2x10" sound chambers and speakers designed specifically for this cabinet, the low end will blow you away. 800 watts RMS power handling, heavy duty hardware and castors and durable black GatorHyde® for a lifetime of abuse. The cabinet features a switchless input cup that facilitates stereo or mono operation, depending on which jacks you plug into. A mean black look and black cloth grill covering completes the package."
Apparently the low end of the this one will "blow me away"....probably 'cause they made it like an Ampeg. Apparently it'll handle a "lifetime of abuse" which considering it's a Peavey, may not be too far from the truth.


Listening out my window, there is some disco version of " Black Betty" that is distracting me. If somebody want more examples of this type of stuff, more will be available to you.

 

[johnsonabq]

There's nothing wrong with that. But it was probably based on D.B. Keele's 1977 JBL 'W' horn, which had a specified bandwidth up to 500Hz, to handle the low end of a multi-way PA system. So employed it was a very good cab in its day. As a stand alone bass cab, not so much.

My point exactly. Completely inappropriate as is for the bass guitar.

 

[will33]

Yeah, it's a great time to be a bassist. We have more choices than we have ever had, of which we can really know nothing about with the given information unless we part with our cash first, at which time it is too late. How again is it this benefits us?

 

[will33]

Should add one of these.......



Or 2

 

[agedhorse]

To clarify, I was not trying to push anything on anybody, just presenting several examples of tradeoffs made when different speaker orientations and configurations are used. Making informed decisions starts with understanding better the bigger picture.

Again, it's not a black and white. There are shades of gray, different configurations and orientations might suit different player's personal preferences, stage set-ups, acoustic spaces better than others. I encourage folks to experiment, to try to hear the various artifacts that relate to the differen configurations, and then choose the one that offers the best tradeoff for their particular taste. It's totally brand independant too.

 

[agedhorse]

Of course. The superior pattern control of vertical sources minimizes floor and ceiling bounce, not only controlling early reflections but in simple terms putting more sound in the listening area and less on the ground and in the rafters.

IMO, there's not going to be much pattern control from a 4' stack of vertical 10" drivers down very low. Don't have a calculator, but just a hunch the any meaningful vertical pattern control is going to be limited to above 4-500Hz and even then it will be pretty small.

The real advantage to vertical stacking is the placement of summed lobes in the vertical plane but that will be traded off against the increased number of boundery reflection artifacts. Frankly, I can see vertical better for some and not as good for others depending on the specific conditions.

 

[agedhorse]

Yeah, it's a great time to be a bassist. We have more choices than we have ever had, of which we can really know nothing about with the given information unless we part with our cash first, at which time it is too late. How again is it this benefits us?

It is absolutely a good time to be a bassist, no doubt.

The best way to try this new gear out is to hook up with a good dealer, one who will allow you to try a rig out on a job, compare and spend some quality time with it. Other ways include good discussions with other players who share both the passion of playing bass and the desire to expand their equipment horizons. There is indeed a lot of very cool technology that allows us (all manufacturers) to go to places that were previously either too costly or too specialized to be practical.

For example, I remember 20-25 years ago how I wished for stronger magnetic materials to allow for lighter weight drivers and baskets. It took time for practical commercialization of rare earth technologies to trickle down to our industry... not because we wouldn't have used it in a heartbeat 25 years ago, but because back then it was WAY too expensive and the manufacturing infrastructure was not available.

Same thing for first class G/H amps and lighter weight transformers (toroid and high permeability magentics), then SMPS, then class D. If the technology had been available earlier, of course we would have been all over it.

Hope this helps explain my reasoning.

 

[johnsonabq]

To clarify, I was not trying to push anything on anybody, just presenting several examples of tradeoffs made when different speaker orientations and configurations are used. Making informed decisions starts with understanding better the bigger picture.

Again, it's not a black and white. There are shades of gray, different configurations and orientations might suit different player's personal preferences, stage set-ups, acoustic spaces better than others. I encourage folks to experiment, to try to hear the various artifacts that relate to the differen configurations, and then choose the one that offers the best tradeoff for their particular taste. It's totally brand independant too.

Sorry if I implied you were. I'm sure the science of it all is important and each place is different. And I do try different things in the same club to see what works best. To me though what the audience hears is secondary to what I hear. (My sound engineer friends are wincing now) But if I'm not happy playing then why bother? That insures the best performance from me. I have to hear and I have to like what I hear. That's why I like the stacked TCE cabs because the top driver (w/coaxial tweeter) is close to ear level and that means I hear well.

 

[johnsonabq]

It is absolutely a good time to be a bassist, no doubt.

The best way to try this new gear out is to hook up with a good dealer, one who will allow you to try a rig out on a job, compare and spend some quality time with it.

So many of us though are limited on that. If it's large dealer you have to have already spent a LARGE amount of money there in order to borrow an amp for the night. Or if you have a small dealer who wants to work with you and let you try something out on a gig, they'll be limited in what they have to offer. You have to do research/homework and then lay your money down. And hope for the best.

 

[will33]

It is absolutely a good time to be a bassist, no doubt.

The best way to try this new gear out is to hook up with a good dealer, one who will allow you to try a rig out on a job, compare and spend some quality time with it. Other ways include good discussions with other players who share both the passion of playing bass and the desire to expand their equipment horizons. There is indeed a lot of very cool technology that allows us (all manufacturers) to go to places that were previously either too costly or too specialized to be practical.

For example, I remember 20-25 years ago how I wished for stronger magnetic materials to allow for lighter weight drivers and baskets. It took time for practical commercialization of rare earth technologies to trickle down to our industry... not because we wouldn't have used it in a heartbeat 25 years ago, but because back then it was WAY too expensive and the manufacturing infrastructure was not available.

Same thing for first class G/H amps and lighter weight transformers (toroid and high permeability magentics), then SMPS, then class D. If the technology had been available earlier, of course we would have been all over it.

Hope this helps explain my reasoning.

That makes a whole lot of sense in amps. In speaker design, etc. I don't see a whole lot that's a whole lot different than what was being done in the '80's. Advances in driver technology/performance obviously, but in terms of design layout, acoustic principles, proclaiming to the public why someone's designs are superior and explaining why.....not so much. It seems things are leaning more on marketing hoo hah and less on good design when in fact, good design could be leaned on a little more and "flair" a lot less.

Sorry if I implied you were. I'm sure the science of it all is important and each place is different. And I do try different things in the same club to see what works best. To me though what the audience hears is secondary to what I hear. (My sound engineer friends are wincing now) But if I'm not happy playing then why bother? That insures the best performance from me. I have to hear and I have to like what I hear. That's why I like the stacked TCE cabs because the top driver (w/coaxial tweeter) is close to ear level and that means I hear well.

I think I agree with your principles to a good degree but we must separate when it comes to prioritizing personal sound over audience sound. Myself, yeah, I have sounds I like as "great sound" to me playing the bass, but, the whole reason you can play the bass in front of people is that people want to see you. This can of course be bent out of context way the other way, but within a reasonable medium, I always sacrifice my personal sound to make sure the audience has the best sound they can. In a perfect world, this compromise wouldn't be necessary but in ours, it is.

 

[johnsonabq]

I think I agree with your principles to a good degree but we must separate when it comes to prioritizing personal sound over audience sound. Myself, yeah, I have sounds I like as "great sound" to me playing the bass, but, the whole reason you can play the bass in front of people is that people want to see you. This can of course be bent out of context way the other way, but within a reasonable medium, I always sacrifice my personal sound to make sure the audience has the best sound they can. In a perfect world, this compromise wouldn't be necessary but in ours, it is.

Well, OK. Maybe I came on a little strong on that. I have always (so far) found a way to get what I want on stage. I will work with the sound man (e.g. putting my rig on the side of the stage). I'm not going to ruin the mix to please myself. What I want on stage is not that unreasonable. I'm not some kid who has to have his SVT on 11.

The other side of this coin is my personal circumstance. I'm not in this for the money any more. And if a venue insists that I compromise too much, well, I'll do as asked and just won't play there any more. I am and always will be a professional. I will always want the band to sound it's best when we play.

I think I prioritized the way I did because (at least around here) the audience is easily pleased. I hear bands sound like total crap and the people are hooting and hollering. And the club? All they care about is what they see when they hit "Total" on the cash register.

 

[will33]

Well, OK. Maybe I came on a little strong on that. I have always (so far) found a way to get what I want on stage. I will work with the sound man (e.g. putting my rig on the side of the stage). I'm not going to ruin the mix to please myself. What I want on stage is not that unreasonable. I'm not some kid who has to have his SVT on 11.

The other side of this coin is my personal circumstance. I'm not in this for the money any more. And if a venue insists that I compromise too much, well, I'll do as asked and just won't play there any more. I am and always will be a professional. I will always want the band to sound it's best when we play.

Seem to be a pretty sensible dude. I'm one of those guys who can end up sounding like me on pretty much whatever. Of course, playing nice stuff sounds like a better version of me and playing on hack stuff it takes more work, but I can sound "good" or "like me" on most any of it. So, I get into all this other intracacies of sound to try to get it to sound good to everybody else.