Special Edition Build Off - Phony Abalone

[Rôckhewer]

And.... if your CA application is sound...
(I do about 30 coats)
It doesn't matter what you use for slot filler...
In my opinion.
But that's only if you can get it flat first.
I wouldn't want to try that with aluminoom.
& Leaving it low will look like poo.
Wood is good... if you can get it.
Card?... as long as it's full and soaked with CA.
...but... yuk...kinda.
It will at least sand down better than metal

 

[Sunk by Sirens]

You had me at ADGC
I love a tenor fretless.
Subbed

Not tenor, tuned down to A0-standard

I figured you meant to inlay them like you would plastic or veneer strips so they'd be flush. I suppose you could do it the way you're describing, but I really don't think it'd look or feel very good. I also know that aluminum and wood react to heat, cold, humidity and so on RADICALLY differently, I can see the CA glue (which is crystalline and hard/brittle when it dries) cracking or puking out of the slots if stuff doesn't jive with each other. I don't know that there would be enough aluminum mass to matter a whole lot, but I figure if it worked, it would've been done by now (because it probably would be cool looking if executed properly). To my knowledge, it hasn't.

Yeah, at this point, aluminum "veneer" isn't looking to be a good option, thanks to everybody's feedback.

Maybe I'm just stubborn, but it feels like cheating to have someone mail me some maple or cherry veneer. Lol

 

[Reedt2000]

Not tenor, tuned down to A0-standard


Yeah, at this point, aluminum "veneer" isn't looking to be a good option, thanks to everybody's feedback.

Maybe I'm just stubborn, but it feels like cheating to have someone mail me some maple or cherry veneer. Lol

So you mail them $ in return (or other trade-able brick-a-brack )

 

[Sunk by Sirens]

Where are you located? I have miles of cherry veneer, stamps, and envelopes. If you want, PM me your address and I'll mail you a few pieces of veneer.

I applaud your sense of creativity on finding a material to fill the slots with - just wanted to offer this as an option if you want to go a more "traditional" route.

I'll take you up on that offer. Besides, who really wants miles of veneer. I'd be doing you a favor

I'm looking around for anything trade-worthy that'll fit into an envelope. Hope you like surprises.

 

[Beej]

I'll take you up on that offer. Besides, who really wants miles of veneer. I'd be doing you a favor

I'm looking around for anything trade-worthy that'll fit into an envelope. Hope you like surprises.

And just like that, this just became the build off's most exciting thread!

 

[Malak the Mad]

@Sunk by Sirens; Full disclosure…I have no idea if this is a valid idea, but it's something I kinda-sorta experimented with a handful of years ago when the notion of de-fretting a Squier Jazz crossed my mind. I figured it can't hurt passing it on to you and other watchful readers to see if it holds any water.

My idea was to fill the gaps with strong epoxy, but I wanted the lines to show clearly, so I dug some inspiration up from my old art school training.

1. To simulate a fretboard, I got a piece of long scrap wood and cut a series of grooves across the short axis, then dyed it brown with some RIT dye.
2. Grabbing a bunch of acrylic paints…black, white, metallic gold and metallic copper…I added each individual color to clear epoxy right after mixing the binary liquids.
3. Before the epoxy-goop started to harden, I applied it to each slot with a popsicle stick, I made sure I was pressing slowly, but firmly to force as much air out as possible.
4. Using a fresh playing card like a putty scraper, I very gently whisked the excess epoxy-goop sticking up off the "fretboard". To avoid excess smearing, I held the card at an angle and pushed away from me, not dragging it towards me.

It's been a while since I did this experiment, so I can't remember if I gave the epoxy-goop a minute or two to stiffen a little to help avoid more smearing or not. What I can say for sure, though, is the copper really "popped" nicely, especially against the RIT-simulated "rosewood".

Has anyone reading this ever tried or heard about something similar? While I'm not in any rush to take up a fretless instrument, I'm still curious of my low-budget, DIY technique would work. And if it somehow helps Sunk out with his project, all the better!

 

[Sunk by Sirens]

And just like that, this just became the build off's most exciting thread!

Lol

@Sunk by Sirens; Full disclosure…I have no idea if this is a valid idea, but it's something I kinda-sorta experimented with a handful of years ago when the notion of de-fretting a Squier Jazz crossed my mind. I figured it can't hurt passing it on to you and other watchful readers to see if it holds any water.

My idea was to fill the gaps with strong epoxy, but I wanted the lines to show clearly, so I dug some inspiration up from my old art school training.

1. To simulate a fretboard, I got a piece of long scrap wood and cut a series of grooves across the short axis, then dyed it brown with some RIT dye.
2. Grabbing a bunch of acrylic paints…black, white, metallic gold and metallic copper…I added each individual color to clear epoxy right after mixing the binary liquids.
3. Before the epoxy-goop started to harden, I applied it to each slot with a popsicle stick, I made sure I was pressing slowly, but firmly to force as much air out as possible.
4. Using a fresh playing card like a putty scraper, I very gently whisked the excess epoxy-goop sticking up off the "fretboard". To avoid excess smearing, I held the card at an angle and pushed away from me, not dragging it towards me.

It's been a while since I did this experiment, so I can't remember if I gave the epoxy-goop a minute or two to stiffen a little to help avoid more smearing or not. What I can say for sure, though, is the copper really "popped" nicely, especially against the RIT-simulated "rosewood".

Has anyone reading this ever tried or heard about something similar? While I'm not in any rush to take up a fretless instrument, I'm still curious of my low-budget, DIY technique would work. And if it somehow helps Sunk out with his project, all the better!

There are a couple posts above from a few different people that suggest SOLID inserts over any kind of goo, epoxy, putty, or glue alternative. They usually don't dry to be a structurally sound material.

To my understanding, surface hardness isn't directly related to the compression strength of a material. It might give a little insight to it, but it's not a definite 1:1, "this thing is really hard, so it can withstand compression." Take glass for instance. Very hard, but brittle. And when it does encounter compression, it can withstand a certain amount of force and then it shatters. Most structurally acceptable materials have a range of compression where they have some plasticity; that is, they deform under stress, but then return to their original state. Funny enough: plastics are called such because they behave with plasticity.

That's not to say epoxy or other similar materials will shatter, more than likely they will deform and not return to their original state. Even minimally, overtime this effect will compound and either form gaps between "fill" and the fingerboard, or it will cause the neck to bow.

In my case, I originally used CA glue to fill the gaps, which is the hardest glue around, even harder than any epoxy I know of (except maybe the standard JB Weld steel epoxy or whatever, but good luck sanding THAT!). And even though I downtuned a whole step to D-standard, albeit with heavier gauge strings to avoid floppy strings, my neck has a very slight, but noticeable, bow. At the apex, it approaches 2mm or so. And I expect over time it will get worse.

That's not even mentioning how it may not cure properly and not even act ideal for the given material, for a variety of reasons. And then you may either have every gap filled with something that acts slightly differently, potentially causing a twist or sideways bend in addition to a bow, but that is less likely than just a bow forming.

Then there is also the issue of: even if it cures correctly and has "enough" compression strength to prevent bowing, are you sure you got it all the way down to totally fill the gap? There is a lot of uncertainty with that method, and it is a PITA to gut it and redo it, let me tell ya. Especially if the whole reason you did it is because you don't have the space, tools, and or skills to do it "the traditional way."

If you are on a budget, find something solid you can use. Ideally, something with not too different of a thermal expanding/contraction rate (sooo not aluminum!) that way gaps don't form between the fill and the board, and that'll also prevent cracks forming in any finish you adorn your fingerboard with.

Imo, stuffing the fret gaps with sawdust and squirting some glue in there is better than just epoxy. Lay the sawdust, then squirt your glue (CA glue is best imo, cause it dries hard and fast) in layers, building up to be even with the fretboard. That'll make sure glue is all the way down yer crack

Get creative.

 

[Ripthorn]

I'm doing an aluminum veneer on my Cepheid 5 bass. I looked at the thermal expansion coefficient, since everyone brings up the thermal expansion. Aluminum will expand something like 130 micro inches per inch length per 10 degrees Fahrenheit. That means a two inch wide strip will increase in length about .00026" with a 10 degree temp change. A finished instrument isn't likely to see more than 20-40 degree swings from central value, which would indicate about a thousandth of an inch max expansion. Wood will flex that much (as will the glue) pretty easily in my experience, so I am going for it, personally. I think this is something where there is a lot of concern about it theoretically, but very little practical evidence either way. I guess my build has the potential to be a disaster, but I've had temp ranges from 90 down to 50 or so in the shop and all is well thus far. Then again, I have an insatiable need to experiment...

 

[Sunk by Sirens]

I'm doing an aluminum veneer on my Cepheid 5 bass. I looked at the thermal expansion coefficient, since everyone brings up the thermal expansion. Aluminum will expand something like 130 micro inches per inch length per 10 degrees Fahrenheit. That means a two inch wide strip will increase in length about .00026" with a 10 degree temp change. A finished instrument isn't likely to see more than 20-40 degree swings from central value, which would indicate about a thousandth of an inch max expansion. Wood will flex that much (as will the glue) pretty easily in my experience, so I am going for it, personally. I think this is something where there is a lot of concern about it theoretically, but very little practical evidence either way. I guess my build has the potential to be a disaster, but I've had temp ranges from 90 down to 50 or so in the shop and all is well thus far. Then again, I have an insatiable need to experiment...

Could you elaborate how exactly your aluminum veneer will be placed? Will it be a top layer on either the neck or body? If so, I see it being negligible as well; go for it.

With the case of filling fret slots with it, the effect is stacked with a multiplicity of however many frets you removed, and there will be added tension to exacerbate the problem via the strings. Literally just "plating" any part of a bass with it should work fine imo. The only problem I can imagine is if you put a finish on top of the aluminum that also extends onto a non-aluminum-covered section of wood, and the difference in expansion/contraction may cause the finish to crack. Or the expansion of the aluminum compromises however you adhere it to the wood.

That said, whenever I contemplated the idea of filling fret gaps with fitted aluminum sheet, I also toyed with the thought of finishing my fingerboard with segments of aluminum (ideally one big sheet, but they don't make beer cans that big), but I doubt my ability to do that well. I really don't need to add another tally to how many times I redo this f***ing bass.

 

[Ripthorn]

Could you elaborate how exactly your aluminum veneer will be placed? Will it be a top layer on either the neck or body? If so, I see it being negligible as well; go for it.

With the case of filling fret slots with it, the effect is stacked with a multiplicity of however many frets you removed, and there will be added tension to exacerbate the problem via the strings. Literally just "plating" any part of a bass with it should work fine imo. The only problem I can imagine is if you put a finish on top of the aluminum that also extends onto a non-aluminum-covered section of wood, and the difference in expansion/contraction may cause the finish to crack. Or the expansion of the aluminum compromises however you adhere it to the wood.

That said, whenever I contemplated the idea of filling fret gaps with fitted aluminum sheet, I also toyed with the thought of finishing my fingerboard with segments of aluminum (ideally one big sheet, but they don't make beer cans that big), but I doubt my ability to do that well. I really don't need to add another tally to how many times I redo this f***ing bass.

On mine, it is sandwiched between the top and back woods. Finish will be oil and wax.

With the frets, being so narrow, the cumulative effect of even a large temp change would still be on the order of .001" or less, far less than the effect of even two tightly fitted frets. Home depot has. 019" aluminum sheet. A little colored epoxy, and you'd be in business, but I know the pain of a guitar that requires multiple rounds of refinishing or similar...

 

[Sunk by Sirens]

Update, with pics

Scrolling through the growing list of other entries, I realized my build thread is missing something: the "pile pic."

You may notice the pickguard is nowhere to be found... that'll be a surprise for later. Speaking of surprises:

A close up of the knobs, the whole inspiration for the design of this final refinish:

A look at the back of the neck and body. Again, all the black on the neck is what remains of the black spray paint from my "worn, roadrash" finish, living in the pits and divots of removing the finish before that:

Take 2:

I'm making progress cleaning up the neck using that knife. It's a pretty dulled, serrated paring knife; it doesn't eat through rosewood too easily which is good. Brown sawdust is bad, white sawdust is good:

I realized way too late that I should have taped off the fingerboard, leaving only the CA-filled fret gaps exposed. Impatient and frustrated, I still manage to create more work for myself... some gaps are much cleaner than others:

I mainly work on the floor for the space and to create less mess, so I can only work on my bass when the cats are asleep...

That's it for this week!

 

[wraub]

Having done this myself, I'll offer another vote for solid filler over a "goo" and, depending on your local climate, I'd suggest you don't want to let that neck wait for a week with the support of the frets removed.

I'm definitely watching, though...

 

[Sunk by Sirens]

Having done this myself, I'll offer another vote for solid filler over a "goo" and, depending on your local climate, I'd suggest you don't want to let that neck wait for a week with the support of the frets removed.

I'm definitely watching, though...

Here, Sunday is considered the end of the week. It's a joke.

I'll be working on it all night in my dreams and as soon as my cats go to sleep tomorrow, late morning

 

[Malak the Mad]

Thanks for the quick and thoughtful response. I haven't written much, or perhaps not at all, here about my experiment. I especially like this part…

That's not even mentioning how it may not cure properly and not even act ideal for the given material, for a variety of reasons. And then you may either have every gap filled with something that acts slightly differently, potentially causing a twist or sideways bend in addition to a bow, but that is less likely than just a bow forming.

Then there is also the issue of: even if it cures correctly and has "enough" compression strength to prevent bowing, are you sure you got it all the way down to totally fill the gap? There is a lot of uncertainty with that method, and it is a PITA to gut it and redo it, let me tell ya. Especially if the whole reason you did it is because you don't have the space, tools, and or skills to do it "the traditional way."

If you are on a budget, find something solid you can use. Ideally, something with not too different of a thermal expanding/contraction rate (sooo not aluminum!) that way gaps don't form between the fill and the board, and that'll also prevent cracks forming in any finish you adorn your fingerboard with.

…which touches on my biggest concern; "Would the epoxy adhere well enough to both sides of the groove?". As far as it's inherent strength, it was my thinking that 2500psi epoxy would be strong enough to withstand the common rigors a musical instrument is put through, even if the acrylic paint reduced some of that strength.

Here's what I used; Invalid Link Removed

Ultimately, though, it's all just an intellectual exercise for me. In case I didn't make it clear enough before, I never went through with a real-deal experiment on an actual fretboard. I only tried it on pieces of scrap wood. And for the record, I didn't go that way "because you don't have the space, tools, and or skills to do it 'the traditional way'", but because I wanted to try something "untested and different".

What can I say? I like seeking low-cost, do-it-yourself solutions that can be done in the comfort of one's own home and without a room full of specialized gear. That's how, for example, I came up with my "DIY Sharpie Tinting Technique™" to liven up basic black/white/black pickguards with common household items and sidestep the cost of a forty to sixty dollar custom piece.

 

[Sunk by Sirens]

Thanks for the quick and thoughtful response. I haven't written much, or perhaps not at all, here about my experiment. I especially like this part…

…which touches on my biggest concern; "Would the epoxy adhere well enough to both sides of the groove?". As far as it's inherent strength, it was my thinking that 2500psi epoxy would be strong enough to withstand the common rigors a musical instrument is put through, even if the acrylic paint reduced some of that strength.

Here's what I used; Invalid Link Removed

Ultimately, though, it's all just an intellectual exercise for me. In case I didn't make it clear enough before, I never went through with a real-deal experiment on an actual fretboard. I only tried it on pieces of scrap wood. And for the record, I didn't go that way "because you don't have the space, tools, and or skills to do it 'the traditional way'", but because I wanted to try something "untested and different".

What can I say? I like seeking low-cost, do-it-yourself solutions that can be done in the comfort of one's own home and without a room full of specialized gear. That's how, for example, I came up with my "DIY Sharpie Tinting Technique™" to liven up basic black/white/black pickguards with common household items and sidestep the cost of a forty to sixty dollar custom piece.

View attachment 3784638
View attachment 3784639

Now that I've put this build out for all the world to see, to some degree I am using this as a way to say, "Look what can be done in a kitchen, on the cheap, with un-specialized tools." The main goal, of course, is to finally get to string up this bass and enjoy playing it again without any haunting regrets.

Personally, I think pursuing epoxy fill isn't worth it, but if it's something you wanna experiment with, go for it. In general, epoxies emit toxic fumes until they cure, and that doesn't mix well with a small living space. Ime they don't provide any benefit except potentially being a little cheaper than veneer or other solid fill, especially if you already have epoxy on hand. However, veneers are kinda cheap themselves. And if you level up your charisma enough, you may end up like me and have people lining up to give you some of their veneer! Lol

If you have a link to anything that shows your Sharpie technique, I'm curious to see what you did, please share.

For me, a couple cans of spray paint are pretty cheap and do-able. I'll probably use some handmade stencils to help get a pattern I want. It's just a matter of waiting for a still, dry-ish day to spray outside, and finding somewhere suitable to hang up my art to dry/cure.

 

[Malak the Mad]

Personally, I think pursuing epoxy fill isn't worth it, but if it's something you wanna experiment with, go for it. In general, epoxies emit toxic fumes until they cure, and that doesn't mix well with a small living space. Ime they don't provide any benefit except potentially being a little cheaper than veneer or other solid fill, especially if you already have epoxy on hand. However, veneers are kinda cheap themselves. And if you level up your charisma enough, you may end up like me and have people lining up to give you some of their veneer! Lol

Like I said, this experiment was years ago. I've long since gotten over my Fretless-GAS.

As far as my "CHA Stat" is concerned, it's funny you mention that. Just this morning, I found a piece of veneer given to me for free by one of my local Guitar Center's techs. Say, are you scrying where you oughtn't be?

If you have a link to anything that shows your Sharpie technique, I'm curious to see what you did, please share.

Gladly! Here's the order I did it, quoted from one of my parts-bass builds

It's pretty easy, but it does take a little care and patience. Not the "lay down a layer and wait a week" kind of patience, but it still takes a few hours.

A pickguard that still has it's protective sticker is ideal. Otherwise, you'll have to work very carefully. A "Fine Point" marker is preferable over an "Ultra Fine" point. I've never used anything bigger than a "Fine", so I don't know how well you could control the amount of ink hitting the edge and the front face. One other thing, this technique assumes you're using a black/white/black pickguard.

• Remove the pickguard. (I know…"DUH", but it's still important)
• Grip the guard through the pickup slots so you don't get ink all over your fingers and end up smudging it all over the front face.
• Trace the angled edge of the marker point around the beveled edge of the guard. Make sure the white portion is completely covered, but don't over-saturate it. One layer is just fine.
• Let dry for an hour or so. Make sure you rest it on something clean and dry, like a sheet of white paper. (You don't want to get stray ink on anything)
• Take a paper towel and fold it up until you have a burnishing surface. Hold the guard down flat onto a hard surface with the white paper under it and start rubbing/burnishing the beveled edge. This is to remove excess ink that hasn't bonded with the guard. The paper underneath is to keep smudges off your work surface.
• Apply a second coat, wait another hour and burnish again. Make sure the coat is even and doesn't look runny.
• If you like the color you've achieved and it's consistency, you're done.
• The Blacktop Jazz took two coats, but the blue guard took three to get that blue-to-purple scarab-effect. The cool thing about it is that, like a scarab it shifts depending on the angle and intensity of the light hitting it.

One very important point; stray ink may come off if you rub a polishing cloth over the coloring-job. Not a lot, if you burnished enough off, but just be careful when polishing around it. I noticed some red streaking on my polishing cloth when I was cleaning off my Blacktop Jazz. Not too much, but just a little. Also, I don't know how it'll react if it gets wet, so be careful, especially if you tend to sweat all over your bass.

At a fellow TB'ers suggestion, I've since experimented with using Brush-On Krazy Glue. The red dye sealed up nicely and without any problem. I suspected sealing up the blue dye would take away that cool-as-hell "color shifting scarab effect", so I did a trial run on a second guard. Sure enough, it locks in the blue, but the purple-shift doesn't happen, so I left the guard pictured above alone. I just be mindful of rubbing off any dye or touching the edge if/when my hands are moist.

 

[Sunk by Sirens]

Update, with pics

Finished cleaning all the CA out of my fingerboard, now it's time to wait for the veneers coming from @dwizum in the mail. In the meantime, I'm working on getting radius block well, radiused:

I didn't cut a perfectly 90 degree angle all along my traced radius, so I'll have to sand it even, or try again with the jigsaw. My original plan with the jig is to glue several of these cuts together to form a larger sanding area that will provide me both less physical labor and a more even board. I may do less than I hoped for, and just pick out the flattest, most perfect cuts and save myself some sanding in preparation for sanding. We'll see. Then, we'll sand. Then... we'll sand.

After most of the sanding, before I get to more sanding, here are the spray cans I will be using. The main purpose of the Deft waterborne acrylic was to seal the exposed wood while I took a hiatus months ago. I may use it again on the body as a clear primer before spraying the translucent purple and green. I may not and just go without a primer. The black will cover the fretboard and maybe the rest of the neck. Clearcoat going on top of everything except the fingerboard, which will be coated with Loctite CA glue.

Next time, we'll take a peek at a more finished jig, a headstock with a new hole, and much more!

 

[bbh]

I’ve found that I prefer a non finished neck. It feels better in my hands and it doesn’t get slippery in the hottest weather. What do you think?

 

[Sunk by Sirens]

I’ve found that I prefer a non finished neck. It feels better in my hands and it doesn’t get slippery in the hottest weather. What do you think?

This neck has speedbumps on the rear from removing the paint I brushed on long ago. It was quite a thick layer of paint, so after 2 minutes of sanding, I realized I could do a lot more by scraping. Except I didn't really scrape after that. Instead, I use a thumbplane, and it dove right in nice and deep in a few spots.

Then later I made the mistake of leaving it completely unfinished, and the grain ate the grime, leaving a streak of unpleasantness.

Overall, it feels meh. Not terrible, but given some time I could probably tell you what fret my hand is at based on what my thumb is feeling in the back. Plus it looks crappy. I see it, and I get sad lol... so I need to cover it up.

My new main player has a glossy neck, and I've grown accustomed to it, though I probably still prefer a satin finish. Most likely I will clearcoat this neck and sand it with some 220 grit paper and leave it at that for a satin feel. Maybe go higher grit but not too much.

 

[dwizum]

Try a scotchbrite pad for the matte effect on the neck instead of sandpaper. Get the fine or extra fine. It'll give a more even feel without the scratching from grit in the sandpaper. You can also put a dab of paste wax on the scotchbrite pad and it'll give a nice soft sheen and a real smooth fast feel.