Double Bass SPIROCORES ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!!!!!

[DoubleMIDI]

A string made for a shorter vibrating string length is often heavier per length unit to get the low notes without dropping too much in tension so the top can still be driven well by the string.
This typically results in a thicker string that is stiffer. Also the smaller top doesn’t move as easily as the larger one.
And small instruments are often made for young students, not for professional players, so most of them are made of plywood which is stiffer than carved wood. But individual things like soundpost length and position play a role too.

In your case, moving the bridge closer to the fingerboard, you enlarged the distance between treble bridge foot and soundpost. This lets the treble bridge foot vibrate more and the resulting feel is that the string is looser. You would have almost gotten the same thing by moving the soundpost lower (with the same distance as got now).

If you ever have played on a solid body EUB with the same amount of string angle over the bridge you would have felt that these strings are very tight with steel core strings (that are not downtuned solos). Therefor most of the solid body EUBs have a smaller string angle at the bridge to make the string feel a bit looser. And typically lower tension or stretchier strings are used on such EUBs than on acoustic DBes.

Tension of a string only depends on mass of the vibrating string, pitch and length of the vibrating string.

It is a bit strange that the feel depends not only on string tension and stretchiness but also on other parameters like movement of the bridge (and therefor the string at that point).

 

[Jason Sypher]

By pressing a string down, you are it longer (the shortest path between two points …). So the string is stretched when pressed down. The line of the open string and the two lines from the fingering position to nut and bridge form a triangle.

A string (core) that is easier to stretch is easier to press down. You can roughly get an impression on the stretchiness of a string when you have a look at the amount of string slip over the nut in comparison to the rise of the note of the open string. Also how much you need to turn the tuning machine to tune up the string.

Some years ago I made a post (containing the words elongation and strings) where I measured the slip over the nut from tuning up from a minor third below destination pitch to destination pitch.
I found that PEEK and Nylon/Perlon was very stretchy, gut (G) and most Innovation strings are less stretchy than PEEK/Nylon and steel core is even mich less stretchy than both of them.

Of course, it depends on core diameter, core construction (solid, parallel strands, spirally wound, braided etc.) as well as on material.
And gut strings in historical construction use different core diameters (plain gut is core only). Modern strings use the same core for all strings (maybe except high strings like the high C or above) and use more or thicker windings to add the necessary mass.

Unfortunately, my post at that time didn’t found much interest. Since everybody with a tuner, a scale, a bass and some strings can do the same measurements as I did, I was hoping that some others might have jumped in with their own measurements but that didn’t happen.
Maybe I’m ahead of my time…

I think that is just more technical thought than an average bass player does in two weeks…

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Sure. I think I mentioned that there is a height that becomes too low. It’s very obvious. The bass will sound dead and it will become harder to play. I must have written this poorly because I didn’t mean any of that. My low string setting is probably what most players think of average. Anyways…carry on. No I don’t want my strings flat on the board so I can play with chops. I was referring to posts about stark strings and hand fatigue etc.

FWIW, I never thought you had your strings on the board! I’ve heard you play, although sadly only online up to now. While I’m not as deep a technical thinker as some on this forum, I have noticed that there is a basic triangulation that in my experiences affects a players feel on the bass. It consists of string tension on one corner, string stiffness on another, and string height on the third.

In caveman/bass player terms, all three corners affect the feel. A looser, softer string can be set higher to achieve that feel, or a stiffer, tighter string can be set lower to the same basic perception on the part of the player. I like stiff strings set medium, but if I have looser strings, I set them higher to get the same basic feel, which Nnick Lloyd once called “perceived tension”.

I am at the point where the first signs of arthritis are beginning to show, and am wondering how I will adjust my triangle once I am forced to make changes due to it. I appreciate this discussion in general, and your part in it specifically as a player whose opinion I respect. There will be a lot to think about in the coming years, I expect.

 

[stefaniw80401]

Maybe I’m ahead of my time…

Yup, for sure. And that's why we love you!

The only thing I've done with your spread sheet is to play with the short order. I sort by string name (G,D,A,E) then by recalculated tension for my string length.

 

[Jason Sypher]

FWIW, I never thought you had your strings on the board! I’ve heard you play, although sadly only online up to now. While I’m not as deep a technical thinker at some on this forum, I have noticed that there is a basic triangulation that in my experiences affects a players feel on the bass. It consists of string tension on one corner, string stiffness on another, and string height on the third.

In caveman/bass player terms, all three corners affect the feel. A looser, softer string can be set higher to achieve that feel, or a stiffer, tighter string can be set lower to the same basic perception on the part of the player. I like stiff strings set medium, but if I have looser strings, I set them higher to get the same basic feel, which Nnick Lloyd once called “perceived tension”.

I am at the point where the first signs of arthritis are beginning to show, and am wondering how I will adjust my triangle once I am forced to make changes due to it. I appreciate this discussion in general, and your part in it specifically as a player whose opinion I respect. There will be a lot to think about in the coming years, I expect.

ah, you’re a legend! Likely more articulate than me lol! It’s a great discussion to have and I hope I can add anything at all that might help someone. Still, sprocores are so much fun no matter what gauge a person chooses!

 

[TroyK]

I'm not sure I said I was against any of that. I think any professional bass player knows exactly where that point of tension should be, and, when it has gone too far in one direction. So I'm with Chris as well. What I was trying to get at, and failing apparently to express, is that I see no need in adding more difficulties to the double bass by adding say Stark strings to your life. I was referring to a previous post where a player was talking about the added strain introduced by switching to stark in order to chase a sound in their head. Ah, forums!

Yeah, great discussion and I'm sure that we all go through the same thing, even if we come down in different places on it. I'm not sure that my conclusions are "right" or even best for me. When I realize how much lower some better players than me prefer their strings to be, of course I question myself.

But, we each have to play as ourselves.

 

[Don Kasper]

While I’m not as deep a technical thinker at some on this forum,

Funniest thing seen on the Internets today, (so far...). (jk)(jk??)
IMFO, of course, as always.
Thx.

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

You Spirocore guys don’t sound like you’re having much fun. Remember: SPIROCORES ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!!!!

- Steve

 

[stefaniw80401]

You Spirocore guys don’t sound like you’re having much fun. Remember: SPIROCORES ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!!!!

- Steve

Well, yesterday I took your advice and re-read this entire thread. Again. That was fun

It's interesting how I remember reading many of those comments. Unlike the Perpetuals fun thread, the trend for Spiros seems to be enduring.

Case in point, I just switched Kaplan lights for S42 weichs to cover some jazz gigs. Last night in orchestra rehearsal, I certainly missed the Kaplans, but thanks to this thread, I was acutely more aware of the sound/feel/response difference between these two string sets.

While I think the Kaplan's are superior in the orchestra context, the sweichs hold their own in the section, as well as covering my pizz gigs. But, with the added bonus of having a very compelling sound/feel/response for arco solo repertoire. And my sweichs are only 4 months old, so they'll be getting better with time.

The Kaplan's make my bass sound like a pipe organ and shakes the floors more. That's because they produce so much fundamental.

 

[Selim]

To weich users - what’s your take on the G? Do you feel the urge to swap it out for something else?

My string experiments of the last 5 years or so have led me to conclude that the 4/4 weichs work the best overall (I also concluded that no string gives you everything you want.) They are the most versatile set for me (I’m down to only one bass now).

Nevertheless, I go back n forth between appreciating the balance of the full set and more weighty substitutes.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Funniest thing seen on the Internets today, (so far...). (jk)(jk??)
IMFO, of course, as always.
Thx.

I do endeavor to give satisfaction, sir.

 

[Don Kasper]

I do endeavor to give satisfaction, sir.

"IDETGSS" can now be added to the lexicon.
...Mileage, Maternal Footwear, etc., etc.
Thanks.

 

[Jmilitsc]

To weich users - what’s your take on the G? Do you feel the urge to swap it out for something else?

nope. I’m 3 years into 3/4 3885 weichs and actually liked the g right out of the package under the bow and still do. I really like this set for my carved.

They’re starting to die though, the e and a aren’t speaking like they used to. The d and g still sound quite good overall. Main thing on all strings is the crisp attack pizz is mostly gone. They’re spiros so it’s all a graceful exit but it’s about time.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

By pressing a string down, you are it longer (the shortest path between two points …). So the string is stretched when pressed down. The line of the open string and the two lines from the fingering position to nut and bridge form a triangle.

A string (core) that is easier to stretch is easier to press down. You can roughly get an impression on the stretchiness of a string when you have a look at the amount of string slip over the nut in comparison to the rise of the note of the open string. Also how much you need to turn the tuning machine to tune up the string.

Some years ago I made a post (containing the words elongation and strings) where I measured the slip over the nut from tuning up from a minor third below destination pitch to destination pitch.
I found that PEEK and Nylon/Perlon was very stretchy, gut (G) and most Innovation strings are less stretchy than PEEK/Nylon and steel core is even mich less stretchy than both of them.

Of course, it depends on core diameter, core construction (solid, parallel strands, spirally wound, braided etc.) as well as on material.
And gut strings in historical construction use different core diameters (plain gut is core only). Modern strings use the same core for all strings (maybe except high strings like the high C or above) and use more or thicker windings to add the necessary mass.

Unfortunately, my post at that time didn’t found much interest. Since everybody with a tuner, a scale, a bass and some strings can do the same measurements as I did, I was hoping that some others might have jumped in with their own measurements but that didn’t happen.
Maybe I’m ahead of my time…

I found my own thread, it was over five years ago, so my hint about the title keywords have been wrong:
String elasticity (stretching) measurement

 

[BobbyT]

To weich users - what’s your take on the G? Do you feel the urge to swap it out for something else?

My string experiments of the last 5 years or so have led me to conclude that the 4/4 weichs work the best overall (I also concluded that no string gives you everything you want.) They are the most versatile set for me (I’m down to only one bass now).

Nevertheless, I go back n forth between appreciating the balance of the full set and more weighty substitutes.

I’m good with the 3/4 Weich G about a year into using the full set. I was worried that it would be too “twangy” (based on comments I had read on here) and was prepared to swap in an Evah G, but it’s been fine. There is enough power and a nice singing quality as you go up the fingerboard.

Actually on my bass the D has more of that twang going on than the G, but it doesn’t bother me enough to want to start experimenting with other strings.

As always, your mileage may vary, etc.

 

[Inky13]

Played my first job with a new to me Shen. It came with new Labellas that feel pretty good and bow OK but I’m missing the bigger/darker/louder (to my ears) Mitts. Might switch but my set is pretty hammered and maybe I’m better off with the newer strings. Played some preludes that I liked but maybe too polite?
Arco + volume + pizz + comfort seems to be too much to ask I know. A guy can dream.

 

[john allemond]

Played my first job with a new to me Shen. It came with new Labellas that feel pretty good and bow OK but I’m missing the bigger/darker/louder (to my ears) Mitts. Might switch but my set is pretty hammered and maybe I’m better off with the newer strings. Played some preludes that I liked but maybe too polite?
Arco + volume + pizz + comfort seems to be too much to ask I know. A guy can dream.

I feel ya on that one...

 

[john allemond]

After years of experimenting with gut and all the synthetic "gut like" strings I find myself gravitating to metal core strings... at 62 my hearing is not what is was and the metal core strings respond faster and i can hear them better...they work better under they bow on my basses...

 

[RBrownBass]

Had a full set of Perpetuals on for over a year. Went back to EAD Mitts today, keeping only the G Perp.

 

[Slaphound]

I'm looking at trying the Spirocores Weich/Light. I'm shopping online and I see that they have 3885W (for 3/4 specific)' and S42W(for 3/4 and 4/4) what would it matter which I get?