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Double Bass SPIROCORES ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!!!!!
- Thread starter Jason Sypher
- Start date
I think I was just working out my string demons..haha.
i found that as well. i think if you have the time to build up strength they could be amazing but I imagine needing 4 hours EVERY day of practice to keep those chops up, plus gig time. Did you jump from weich to stark? I think getting yourself a set of 4/4 medium ADG and having that stark under them is your best bet. Its IMO the best spiro setup if your bass can handle it.
I have a feeling that is where i will end up once i am ready to spend money on strings again, mitts with stark E. My current set of mitts are sounding pretty dead otherwise i would use them. I was coming from mitts on this bass but had weichs on my second bass. I do agree that taking some time to get used to them would be a good move and ease the strain. Between the mitts and the starks i actually took a brief hiatus with a full set of Helicore Pizz Mediums which actually are pretty good especially for the price point. I had only tried the Hybrids before which i was never super thrilled with.
BUT, i played a loud bar gig last night with the Stark E and Zyex mediums for the rest. Sounded pretty great and huge. I'll be sticking with that setup for the time being. The Stark E seemingly really helps the rest of the strings come alive, lots of acoustic volume.
I’ve noticed this phenomenon as well, only with a mittel E. The Spiro always seems to change the character of the other 3, no matter what other 3 are (for the better).
As has been said here before, everything seems to go with a Spiro E.
I find the stark love kind of interesting. Speaking for myself I have nearly done away with anything that makes my bass harder to play or is more stressful on my hands. I can relate to wanting a tighter string occasionally so I can work more into the dynamics with the bow but that is about it. I mentioned earlier that I am playing with solo Permanents on the top, a solo Spiro A, and a medium Spiro E on the bottom. They can be a little floppy in standard tuning under the bow at times but other than that they are a joy to play. I have played them in the same group that I used to play standard spiros and even gut and I have noticed no appreciable difference as far as the general appeal of the bass sound and/or the volume or punch. I generally run them very low at home for bowing practice and Bach and then raise them up for gigs. I can always tell if I need another turn of the bridge adjusters to get more front end or a tad more volume. But pretty much everything else is in the hands and fingers. And regarding recording I find that no one would ever know what string or gauge I was playing by what comes across in a mix. I know that isn't what string lovers want to hear. But my focus has been on making my bass playable, particularly for the all-over-the-fingerboard bowing that I learn so much from. I wish I had gotten to this sooner as I think I would be a better player if I had made my bass more playable a long time ago. I was a gut high-action guy for so long, obsessing over having a huge sound. But what I've found over the years, and yes I have read this a million times before I actually got it, the sound comes from you. If you are looking too much at externals you will miss the simple fact that your playing needs work. Intonation is a big contributor to a big sound. If you play out of tune or without precision then your sound will suffer. Blah blah. My two cents is to make your bass easy to play. Of course there is a point of diminishing returns where a lack of tension in the instrument makes it dead but experiment in that direction and you will be rewarded by being able to play things you never thought possible (cello suites etc) and have a gorgeous sound.
So first practice sesh this AM on a set of Weich 3/4 3885s I’ve had as backups.
Wow - as anticipated but always a little surprising - these things are quite a bit more stout than the 4/4 Weichs I’m used to.
My left hand loves the 4/4 Weichs but they feel a little too noodly under the right hand. Now with the 3885s, the right hand is happy but we’re going to have to shed to get the left hand money notes acclimated.
Fortunately this coming weekend I’ve got two electric bass gigs - then next weekend I’ve got three upright gigs - so I’ve got a little time to prepare.
Wow - as anticipated but always a little surprising - these things are quite a bit more stout than the 4/4 Weichs I’m used to.
My left hand loves the 4/4 Weichs but they feel a little too noodly under the right hand. Now with the 3885s, the right hand is happy but we’re going to have to shed to get the left hand money notes acclimated.
Fortunately this coming weekend I’ve got two electric bass gigs - then next weekend I’ve got three upright gigs - so I’ve got a little time to prepare.
This is so helpful. Thanks Jason. I used to operate under the assumption that bigger strings = bigger sound, and with my somewhat undeveloped technique that might be true for me right now in a strictly practical sense… but it’s nice to hear that you are making the lighter gauges work so well and gives me something to aspire to instead of wasting time and energy wondering if I should go back to heavier strings.
To me it is about finding the right strings for the bass, and some basses just so happen to like Mitts or Starks while others are perfectly happy with a Weich. My quest is actually in the name of playing efficiency when it comes to trying out higher tension strings on a bass. I am trying to make it easier to pull a substantial sound out of the bass by using the appropriate tension string.
My Hybrid is great with Weichs, so the thought of putting Starks on that bass is out of the question. I can still get a good sound with a lower tension/gauge string. My laminate is a different story, where Weichs will choke out and Mitts don't. The Stark experiment showed me that Mitts are a good fit for that bass and that Starks just crossed the line into being tough to play(except for the E).
Anyways, just a long winded way of saying i agree with Jason on finding the right tension and not just thinking that the bigger the string the bigger the sound even if it means torture to your hands.
My Hybrid is great with Weichs, so the thought of putting Starks on that bass is out of the question. I can still get a good sound with a lower tension/gauge string. My laminate is a different story, where Weichs will choke out and Mitts don't. The Stark experiment showed me that Mitts are a good fit for that bass and that Starks just crossed the line into being tough to play(except for the E).
Anyways, just a long winded way of saying i agree with Jason on finding the right tension and not just thinking that the bigger the string the bigger the sound even if it means torture to your hands.
As with any advice you should observe your own experience and use what you can from others. There are other factors at play as well such as string length or mensure. I recently “cheated” my bridge slightly closer to the fingerboard to get a slightly shorter string length and a tiny bit more tension on my solo strings. Every bass is indeed different and our set-up should fit the situation in which we find ourselves. I always went for high action until I started to want to bow faster, more complicated passages. There are section players with pretty high string heights but I’m really playing in small acoustic ensembles with no drum kit and no amps! I find that even a small amp onstage messes up the stage sound. Yet, lo and behold, when I hear the livestream of the concert the bass sounds huge and defined. I don’t get quite the rush of all that localized bass but much of that can disturb the balance anyways. There’s definitely a point where my bass sings and where it doesn’t and I’ve been fine tuning that for years to be a place that facilitates PLAYING. Not just some idea of what I think it should be based on a Rudy Van Gelder recording. I believe some of those huge bass sounds we know and love were not played on basses with crazy big strings or high tension high action set ups. Again, it’s really more in the fingers and hands (and bow)!
Brian Bromberg's sound on his "Wood" album, IMO, fits the above sentiment. Brian loves low action Spiro weichs, and somehow gets a nice big fat sound. He modestly claims that it's his old Italian bass, but we all know it's his hands -- and prolly well worn weichs...that and the combination of pickups and amps he uses. He says his bass sounds like that acoustically, but does not have much natural volume.
@Jason Sypher all I know is that there is a sound and a feel that makes me happy to play, and that in my case it means that I will never be a “chops” player and I’m OK with that. It’s about being happy in the end.
Some years ago in Quito I was playing on a nice borrowed bass with spiro weichs set really low and the adjusters were stuck there. I played a bunch of stuff on that show that vaguely reminded me of Van Halen, which was kind of cool, but it didn’t feel right and the notes didn’t have the same kind of impact. Because they didn’t have the same weight, I felt I had to play way more than usual. Different strokes, I guess!
Some years ago in Quito I was playing on a nice borrowed bass with spiro weichs set really low and the adjusters were stuck there. I played a bunch of stuff on that show that vaguely reminded me of Van Halen, which was kind of cool, but it didn’t feel right and the notes didn’t have the same kind of impact. Because they didn’t have the same weight, I felt I had to play way more than usual. Different strokes, I guess!
I sat in on a really nice bass this weekend. The strings were very close to the fingerboard compared to my bass. Left hand was happy...right hand was not.
I think I'm with Chris, I'm probably sacrificing chops for sound and (I think) time. I like to get the strings moving.
I think I'm with Chris, I'm probably sacrificing chops for sound and (I think) time. I like to get the strings moving.
That gives you LESS tension, not more. Shorter string length, same pitch results in lower tension.
The string height might rise a bit and you need to press down the string a bit more which might need a bit more force for the left hand pressing the string down, but the (open) string tension is lower with a shorter vibrating string length.
I've found the left / right hand issue as well. I have joked that the DB is the kind of instrument that you can choose which hand you want to hurt. Left hand ease means right hand difficulties, as that kind of setup forces me to go for something that hardly is there at all. I need to be heard acoustically, also outdoors.
String core material plays a huge role in the tolerances of string height. Coming from Evah weichs, which have similar tension to Spiro mediums S42, the Spiros are much more sensitive to height adjusting. I had evahs at 7 - 10 mm's, and there was room upwards without going too hard to play, whereas Spiro mitts comfort maximum is 6,5 - 9,5mm's. Quarter turn higher and they get unnecessarily hard to play. 6,5 under the G is where there is comfort for the left hand, and just about enough tension for right hand pizz. Loud enough for mostly acoustic playing.
String core material plays a huge role in the tolerances of string height. Coming from Evah weichs, which have similar tension to Spiro mediums S42, the Spiros are much more sensitive to height adjusting. I had evahs at 7 - 10 mm's, and there was room upwards without going too hard to play, whereas Spiro mitts comfort maximum is 6,5 - 9,5mm's. Quarter turn higher and they get unnecessarily hard to play. 6,5 under the G is where there is comfort for the left hand, and just about enough tension for right hand pizz. Loud enough for mostly acoustic playing.
Sure. I think I mentioned that there is a height that becomes too low. It’s very obvious. The bass will sound dead and it will become harder to play. I must have written this poorly because I didn’t mean any of that. My low string setting is probably what most players think of average. Anyways…carry on. No I don’t want my strings flat on the board so I can play with chops. I was referring to posts about stark strings and hand fatigue etc.
I'm not sure I said I was against any of that. I think any professional bass player knows exactly where that point of tension should be, and, when it has gone too far in one direction. So I'm with Chris as well. What I was trying to get at, and failing apparently to express, is that I see no need in adding more difficulties to the double bass by adding say Stark strings to your life. I was referring to a previous post where a player was talking about the added strain introduced by switching to stark in order to chase a sound in their head. Ah, forums!
Interesting. My perception is always that a bass with a 38" string length always feels "tighter" to me than a bass with a 43" string length. I'm sure this was covered elsewhere in the forums.
By pressing a string down, you are it longer (the shortest path between two points …). So the string is stretched when pressed down. The line of the open string and the two lines from the fingering position to nut and bridge form a triangle.
A string (core) that is easier to stretch is easier to press down. You can roughly get an impression on the stretchiness of a string when you have a look at the amount of string slip over the nut in comparison to the rise of the note of the open string. Also how much you need to turn the tuning machine to tune up the string.
Some years ago I made a post (containing the words elongation and strings) where I measured the slip over the nut from tuning up from a minor third below destination pitch to destination pitch.
I found that PEEK and Nylon/Perlon was very stretchy, gut (G) and most Innovation strings are less stretchy than PEEK/Nylon and steel core is even mich less stretchy than both of them.
Of course, it depends on core diameter, core construction (solid, parallel strands, spirally wound, braided etc.) as well as on material.
And gut strings in historical construction use different core diameters (plain gut is core only). Modern strings use the same core for all strings (maybe except high strings like the high C or above) and use more or thicker windings to add the necessary mass.
Unfortunately, my post at that time didn’t found much interest. Since everybody with a tuner, a scale, a bass and some strings can do the same measurements as I did, I was hoping that some others might have jumped in with their own measurements but that didn’t happen.
Maybe I’m ahead of my time…
A string (core) that is easier to stretch is easier to press down. You can roughly get an impression on the stretchiness of a string when you have a look at the amount of string slip over the nut in comparison to the rise of the note of the open string. Also how much you need to turn the tuning machine to tune up the string.
Some years ago I made a post (containing the words elongation and strings) where I measured the slip over the nut from tuning up from a minor third below destination pitch to destination pitch.
I found that PEEK and Nylon/Perlon was very stretchy, gut (G) and most Innovation strings are less stretchy than PEEK/Nylon and steel core is even mich less stretchy than both of them.
Of course, it depends on core diameter, core construction (solid, parallel strands, spirally wound, braided etc.) as well as on material.
And gut strings in historical construction use different core diameters (plain gut is core only). Modern strings use the same core for all strings (maybe except high strings like the high C or above) and use more or thicker windings to add the necessary mass.
Unfortunately, my post at that time didn’t found much interest. Since everybody with a tuner, a scale, a bass and some strings can do the same measurements as I did, I was hoping that some others might have jumped in with their own measurements but that didn’t happen.
Maybe I’m ahead of my time…
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