Still using Rosewood in 2018!

[Wood and Wire]

Especially after I saw some reports showing how clearing land for cattle grazing and farming was destroying far more forests (including teak and rosewood) - and significantly more rapidly - than lumbering ever did.

The trouble is you have both of those things happening together, and as far as I can tell, we simply don't know enough about the reproductive cycle of the Brazillian species. Coupled with the fact that the smaller the population gets, the more prone the seeds become to insect attack.

As long as it's implemented properly, sensibly, and fairly, I don't have a problem with it.

I do see it becoming a serious issue for musicians, collectors, and manufacturers, if it leads to a situation where there is a perception that instruments made for export, out of the U.S. market, are considered inferior.

As it stands, you can still export, and musicians can still travel internationally (with) instruments incorporating Rosewood, but you must have the correct documentation, and certificates.

There is sure to be a black market in both instruments, and counterfeit certificates.

 

[ctmullins]

I suppose this would all be different if instruments were durable; if they didn’t all just disintegrate spontaneously after a few years of use. Imagine if wood and metal lasted for more than a decade! Then musicians could purchase a few good-quality instruments and just play them for ten or fifteen, or (gasp) perhaps even twenty years or more! Alas, we wish it were so. Instead we are compelled through necessity to purchase brand-new instruments by the shipping container load, every year. We are hopelessly locked into this cycle, through the cruel conspiracy of necessity and compulsion. Woe is us.

 

[shwashwa]

ive heard that traveling for international gigs can be an issue with these regulations. true?

 

[40Hz]

The trouble is you have both of those things happening together, and as far as I can tell, we simply don't know enough about the reproductive cycle of the Brazillian species. Coupled with the fact that the smaller the population gets, the more prone the seeds become to insect attack.

As long as it's implemented properly, sensibly, and fairly, I don't have a problem with it.

I do see it becoming a serious issue for musicians, collectors, and manufacturers, if it leads to a situation where there is a perception that instruments made for export, out of the U.S. market, are considered inferior.

As it stands, you can still export, and musicians can still travel internationally (with) instruments incorporating Rosewood, but you must have the correct documentation, and certificates.

There is sure to be a black market in both instruments, and counterfeit certificates.

My real objection is it’s largely window dressing and doesn’t address the underlying issues that are what’s causing the problem. So people get together at a conference called to show that those in power “get it” and are on top of it, come up with some poorly thought out rules that seems to fix the issue, pat themselves on the back over it, smile for the cameras, and then leave it up to everbody else how to implement it so it makes at least some sense.

Kinda like the old joke about the fat slug in the work crew who says: “I’ve done all the thinkin’ for ya - so now all the rest of you guys have to do is get it done.”

The legislature in my state has raised things like this to an art form. People want a law passed. Legislature (due to pressure from special interests) stonewalls on it. Pressure mounts and finally the legislature reluctantly passes the bill. But they neglect to pass it with an implementation clause, or to fund it. So you have a law with no provisions made to enforce it. Or money to do so even if responsibilities were assigned to some branch in the state government to do so.

I’m all for resource management and preservation. But CITES is pure puppet theater from what I’ve seen of it in action. Because the simple fact is, NO country on the planet is going to relinquish one shred of what it considers its national sovereignty to comply with an international agreement unless there’s something in it for them economically. And cheating and evasion are the name of the game even then.

CITES is mostly window dressing to make it look like something is getting done when very little actually is.

 

[Wisebass]

Good way to put a real cramp in the international market - especially for used instruments. Especially with smaller sellers and guitar builders since they know damn well these smaller competitors don’t have the resources to obtain those permits.

I can’t help thinking this is motivated mostly by trade protectionism masquerading as environmental preservation. Especially after I saw some reports showing how clearing land for cattle grazing and farming was destroying far more forests (including teak and rosewood) - and significantly more rapidly - than lumbering ever did.

This had to be said!!!

I' ll add one more word: palm oil!!!

greetings

Wise

 

[mellowinman]

Just you wait. By 2032, the vast majority of rock maple will have been recklessly over-harvested, leading to sweeping punitive legislation regulating its use. You’ll be lucky to find a maple key fob, let alone an instrument, available for a reasonable price. The hidden tragedy in all this will be the fact that the skateboarding industry is the real culprit.

By 2032 I shall be almost 70, and will probably have all the same instruments I have now.

 

[TrevorOfDoom]

Good way to put a real cramp in the international market - especially for used instruments. Especially with smaller sellers and guitar builders since they know damn well these smaller competitors don’t have the resources to obtain those permits.

I can’t help thinking this is motivated mostly by trade protectionism masquerading as environmental preservation. Especially after I saw some reports showing how clearing land for cattle grazing and farming was destroying far more forests (including teak and rosewood) - and significantly more rapidly - than lumbering ever did.

My wife is getting a Master’s Degree in Sustainability, she’s a vegan (i’m a part-time vegan too), and she can list all the millions of ways that human beings are destroying the planet.
The frustration comes in that we live in a consumerist society, and the answer to most of our problems is to stop being consumers.
Buuuut nobody wants to take that step. So we (governmentsx institutions, etc) institute policies and practices that change how we consume, and ideally, educate as well.
Methinks that’s the real endgoal of CITES, but yes, there’s definitely some trade protectionism mingled in there, as it is politics, afterall.
And i do think CITES overreached a bit, but i understand why.
It’s a balancing act, as literally thousands of industries are trying to change to be more ecologically sustainable, while some other industries refuse to acknowledge anything is wrong at all.

Sorry for the ramble. Just trying to give a different perspective.

TL;DR: because we won’t stop consuming woods and such, CITES is trying to change the woods we do consume and how we consume them.
It’s a process.

 

[jamro217]

What's the best endangered species pelt strap for metal?

Ask Ted Nugent.

 

[jamro217]

I suppose this would all be different if instruments were durable; if they didn’t all just disintegrate spontaneously after a few years of use. Imagine if wood and metal lasted for more than a decade! Then musicians could purchase a few good-quality instruments and just play them for ten or fifteen, or (gasp) perhaps even twenty years or more! Alas, we wish it were so. Instead we are compelled through necessity to purchase brand-new instruments by the shipping container load, every year. We are hopelessly locked into this cycle, through the cruel conspiracy of necessity and compulsion. Woe is us.

The only positive of this is that we never have to be burdened with taking a neck off to reveal the manufacture date.

 

[Wood and Wire]

This had to be said!!!

I' ll add one more word: palm oil!!!

greetings

Wise

Great!

Now I can't even get a replacement for my Orangutan pelt strap?

 

[Wisebass]

Great!

Now I can't even get a replacement for my Orangutan pelt strap?

hugs for that

Wise

 

[Lesfunk]

Carbon fiber!

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I prefer baby albino rhinoceros for all my straps....and pau ferro doesn't look right to me on a Fender imho. I prefer "dark rosewood", whatever that actually is.

I worked for the Orvis Company for 27-years and one time had to handle a "presidential complaint" by calling back a lady who complained about one of our casual jackets and some of our pants. It was made from a really heavy cotton twill we called "Rhinohide". She was reading me the riot act about making jackets and pants out of skin from an endangered species.

After she had her say, I explained to her that it was actually a very heavy twill cotton that was extremely durable and we just called it "Rhinohide" because of its extreme durability. Also introduced her to Orvis' conservation policy and efforts and she left the conversation chuckling about her mistake.

Speaking of rosewood fretboards, my 1965 Jazz Bass had a lighter shade of rosewood than I've seen on fretboards since. Wonder if Fender changed suppliers when CBS bought them? The 1966 and later Fender basses always had a significantly darker shade than my 1965 did.

 

[Wisebass]

I worked for the Orvis Company for 27-years

hard to explain that marabou is turkey?

tight lines

Wise

 

[japhy4529]

Frickin spellchecker!

I thought it was funny in 2010, when I sent someone a text saying "I'm walking the dog", without noticing the iPhone had changed it to "I'm the walking dead" - but now I'm just fed up with the number of times I type the correct word, and the phone sneakily changes it to something nonsensical.

Going to have to employ a proofreader.

That said, unless someone comes up with a way of factory farming Rosewoods, to circumvent CITES, I'm maintaining that all existing Rosewood was grown ethnically!

Go to Settings > General > Keyboards and turn off "Auto Correction".

 

[Wood and Wire]

Speaking of rosewood fretboards, my 1965 Jazz Bass had a lighter shade of rosewood than I've seen on fretboards since. Wonder if Fender changed suppliers when CBS bought them? The 1966 and later Fender basses always had a significantly darker shade than my 1965 did.

I just can't imagine where in the world a large American corporation might have been sourcing tropical woods, where there would have been deforestation on an industrial scale, during the mid-60's through to the mid 70's...


1-2-3 what are we fighting for?

 

[Turnaround]

NO country on the planet is going to relinquish one shred of what it considers its national sovereignty

There are 183 countries that have developed CITES together and have signed the agreement. So MOST have agreed.

 

[AshInAmsterdam]

Frickin spellchecker!

I thought it was funny in 2010, when I sent someone a text saying "I'm walking the dog", without noticing the iPhone had changed it to "I'm the walking dead" - but now I'm just fed up with the number of times I type the correct word, and the phone sneakily changes it to something nonsensical.

Going to have to employ a proofreader.

That said, unless someone comes up with a way of factory farming Rosewoods, to circumvent CITES, I'm maintaining that all existing Rosewood was grown ethnically!

That’s nothing. I texted my wife about our son the other day “I hope he dies”.

I didn’t even notice till she responded..... of course, I meant “does”.

 

[Passinwind]

I worked for the Orvis Company for 27-years and one time had to handle a "presidential complaint" by calling back a lady who complained about one of our casual jackets and some of our pants. It was made from a really heavy cotton twill we called "Rhinohide". She was reading me the riot act about making jackets and pants out of skin from an endangered species.

After she had her say, I explained to her that it was actually a very heavy twill cotton that was extremely durable and we just called it "Rhinohide" because of its extreme durability. Also introduced her to Orvis' conservation policy and efforts and she left the conversation chuckling about her mistake.

But I'm betting you didn't mention your broOtal culling of Naugas, did you?

 

[40Hz]

There are 183 countries that have developed CITES together and have signed the agreement. So MOST have agreed.

There’s a huge degree of difference between agreeing to something in principle and adhering to it in fact.

Of the 195 recognized sovereign nations in the world today, 193 of them are currently members of the United Nations.

Read the Charter of the United Nations.

Now read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights proclaimed and adopted by the United Nations back in 1948.

Next go read any book or article on world history you'd care to read covering the period from 1948 to 2017.

For extra credit go watch the evening news tonight.

With all due respect I’m not all that sanguine about the fact 183 nations have signed onto CITES. Or much of anything else they signed for that matter.

Wish it were otherwise. But “so it goes.”

Paper agreements are all well and good But they’re maps. They’re not, in and of themselves, the reality. And as Alfred Korzybski so famously reminds us: “The map is not the territory.”