Still using Rosewood in 2018!

[noodler]

"I'm fully aware that I'll have to obtain an interesting number of passports for the instruments that I'm intent on taking with me once I retire in a few years, presuming that I get to see that day to begin with. Thank you, CITES, for wasting both my time and money and it's not like I have an abundance of either...."

..."I'm not intent on moving to another continent after spending 25 years on this one in a single shot...We'll see."

[Note that I never said ANYTHING about "moving to another continent":

"(My guess: Less than the airlines would charge you to bring your "vintage" basses with you, IF you happen to leave the country with them.)"]

CITES is costing you NOTHING, then.

Why all the bellyaching and goalpost-moving?

 

[ajkula66]

CITES is costing you NOTHING, then.

How do you figure that? Unless it's revoked - possible but unlikely - this treaty will be costing me whatever amount of money I'll have to dish out for passports when the time comes.

Why all the bellyaching and goalpost-moving?

No belly-aching and no goalpost-moving on this end. Just being utterly realistic. In an attempt to make future plans in an ever-changing world.

 

[mikeswals]

....and pau ferro doesn't look right to me on a Fender imho. I prefer "dark rosewood", whatever that actually is.

Fender hasnt been using dark rosewood on their instruments for many many years. Even the basses I was buying in the 90's was merely brown...not even close to the dark stuff on the vintage ones I've had.
Thier rosewood coloring sonce the 90's was about the same as pau ferro.

 

[Wisebass]

1-2-3 what are we fighting for?

Hi Wood and Wire

your post made me laugh!!!

all fretboards come from WOODSTOCK?

greetings

Wise(b)ass

 

[Nephilymbass]

Wanna trade? I lived in USA from 1999-2001 (NAFTA work visa) and then went overseas to Moscow for a dozen years. Now stuck in Canada again, and life here sucks in numerous ways. Don't believe all the carefully constructed propaganda - Canada is run by an Old Boys Club that screws everyone else in the country mightily, and gets away with it as apparently we're so damn polite we don't want to mention the Emperor's new clothes. Canada is in a bigger mess than USA, truth be told we have so many crazy people wandering around they basically outnumber everyone else. Didn't help that they closed all the asylums and turned everyone out on the street 40 years ago - now we have GENERATIONS of mentally ill people who enjoy our bountiful "social welfare" system SO MUCH that vast numbers of them just give up trying to collect Welfare and go live on the streets... And don't even get me STARTED on the "healthcare" system - you have to get on a three year waiting list for a physician. Or you can stand in line ALL DAY at one of the two tiny walk in clinics that service our region of about 40,000... But I digress!

I wish. I don't see Canadians crossing the border to buy meds in the states. Hospital I work at has emergency department wait that's often 20-40 hours of waiting. We've literally had people walk out of the emergency room waiting area and go outside and blow their brains out in the parking lot maybe that's better in flyover states with no people but if you live in a highly populated area or area with few hospitals the waiting is just as bad. I've seen plenty of patients die waiting to get Medicaid or Medicare. We do have patient abandonment laws that help but it's just stabilizing care. I'm a surgical technologists who previously was an EMT I've been working in the same health system for more than a decade and would rather be operated on by the doctor who works for the hospital. The private practice surgeons rush and half ass surgeries not to mention perform surgery that sometimes isn't even needed because they just want to make money. To add a lot of our surgeons are foreigners that come here because they can become surgeons faster here. Several years faster than the UK in fact.

As for mental health. They closed the mental health facilities here also. More recently but we dont have anything in my area anymore.

I think Canadians actually get a good deal when it comes to taxes. In the states taxes may seem lower initially if you're just looking at federal income taxes but here where I live the state and local taxes kill me. Federal taxes are chump change in comparison to all the state and local taxes and privatization of our roads is already starting to suck. I can't take my kids to the kids museum without getting hit with a minimum of four toll charges. As for entitlement programs I wish the people who need them could actually get them here. A lot of the aging baby boomer generation is killing people my age finaicially because they have no retirement. I'd rather pay a little more in taxes than have to pay my mother in laws mortgage, power, not to mention buy her groceries.

 

[Wood and Wire]

all fretboards come from WOODSTOCK?

greetings

Wise(b)ass

Greetings back at ya!

 

[Rip Van Dan]

But I'm betting you didn't mention your broOtal culling of Naugas, did you?

Well, you know the hide of Naugas fell out of favor early on for outdoor clothing, though I understand they are still being culled for use on couches, recliners, and chairs...

 

[Rip Van Dan]

hard to explain that marabou is turkey?

tight lines

Wise

Too true. When I started fly-tying back in 1976 all the marabou you found in the stores were long feathers that came from the Marabou stork. Then someone figured out you could get the same texture of feathers from the common white turkey at a much lower price and both were available for a while. The turkey "marabou" is cheaper and easier to work with for some tying methods and it took over. I would guess most fly-tiers now days aren't necessarily aware that marfabou originally came from a very specific stork, the Marabou stork.

 

[Showdown]

It is interesting that when some African countries allow the hunting of endangered species, the population of those species increases. So much so that they are no longer endangered. That is because they charge hunters huge fees for licensing, trophy transport, and exportation. Those funds are used to create game preserves and fund the employment of game wardens. These wardens are very good at protecting their animals from poachers.

Additionally, the hunters spend a premium for their own transportation, food, and lodging. This is to say nothing of what they spend on guide services and tips to the locals. It is accepted that the meat will be donated to the locals.

In the countries that do not allow and regulate the hunting of endangered species, those species are still endangered.

It would appear that capitalism and consumerism actually do a lot of good for the protection of endangered species.

Respectfully submitted.

Can you cite a source for this please?

 

[Jazz Ad]

I'd love to see sources as well, especially since ALL big wild mammals around the World are currently threatened of extinction and none of them sees their situation getting any better.

As far as wood goes, the situation is the same. Do we need to talk about ebony?

 

[HaphAsSard]

It is interesting that when some African countries allow the hunting of endangered species, the population of those species increases. So much so that they are no longer endangered. That is because they charge hunters huge fees for licensing, trophy transport, and exportation. Those funds are used to create game preserves and fund the employment of game wardens. These wardens are very good at protecting their animals from poachers.

Additionally, the hunters spend a premium for their own transportation, food, and lodging. This is to say nothing of what they spend on guide services and tips to the locals. It is accepted that the meat will be donated to the locals.

In the countries that do not allow and regulate the hunting of endangered species, those species are still endangered.

It would appear that capitalism and consumerism actually do a lot of good for the protection of endangered species.

Respectfully submitted.

Can you cite a source for this please?

I'd love to see sources as well, especially since ALL big wild mammals around the World are currently threatened of extinction and none of them sees their situation getting any better.

As far as wood goes, the situation is the same. Do we need to talk about ebony?

It was one of the subjects of an episode of edu-comedy TV show Adam Ruins Everything (season 1, ep. 17, "Adam Ruins Animals") aired a year ago, as recently mentioned in post #17 of this TB:OT thread, of all places:
Jimmy John's
(The reason is in post #12 above that. JJ is a big game fiend and proud of it, apparently.)

I haven't seen the episode, so/and I don't know how accurate it is about the lower success in preserving endangered species in other countries with no such programs; neither do I know if the show was positive that enough revenues from regulated big game hunting are going into the fight against poaching, and tangibly more effective than the efforts made elsewhere.

Not that it is especially germane to the present discussion anyway (a point already made upthread).
I mean, good luck to, say, Cameroon trying to establish a similar and equally successful system where a small but sufficient number of rich folks fly in to spend tenths* of thousands for the privilege and thrill of legally picking and felling their own endangered tree and bring it back home to use it in their expensive wood shop to make furniture and parquetry for the mansion; with their money going into sustaining the preservation of forests and the local economy...

I read 202dy's post as more of a "environmentalism is often wrong, just sayin'" kind of thing.


*(oops...)

 

[Shanannigan]

I'd love to see sources as well, especially since ALL big wild mammals around the World are currently threatened of extinction and none of them sees their situation getting any better.

As far as wood goes, the situation is the same. Do we need to talk about ebony?

I have to locate a source later, but it's something I've researched before and it's true that hunting has helped preserve, and grow populations of certain species. There are species who have come back from the brink of extinction largely due to hunting and the conservation efforts it funds.

In regards to African wild life it helps conservation in a number of ways.

1. Hunters pay a large amount bidding on tags for the permission of hunting the animal. This money goes into conservation efforts, which include policing conservation areas for poachers.

2. The money spent on hunting puts a value on the animals, which incentives locals to conserve them. A lot of these animals are dangerous to locals. Consider being a father, living in an area with lions as a potential danger to your family. A lot of locals would simply poison the lions to be rid of them. Also the meat of the animal is generally given to the locals, in the case of elephants or rhinos that's a significant amount of food.

3. The animals which are often selective for hunting are old, or dangerous. When male bulls pass their breeding age, they continue to compete with young males. So they will be killing young males, and offspring of those males even though they are no longer breeding themselves. Culling the old bulls helps bring up the population.

 

[Jazz Ad]

Millenials are likely to be the last generation to see a tiger, an african elephant, a great ape or a giraffe.

 

[Wood and Wire]

a small but sufficient number of rich folks fly in to spend tenths of thousands for the privilege

Damned Hyperdeflation!

 

[HaphAsSard]

Damned Hyperdeflation!

I didn't specify how many tenths!

 

[Showdown]

I have to locate a source later, but it's something I've researched before and it's true that hunting has helped preserve, and grow populations of certain species. There are species who have come back from the brink of extinction largely due to hunting and the conservation efforts it funds.

In regards to African wild life it helps conservation in a number of ways.

1. Hunters pay a large amount bidding on tags for the permission of hunting the animal. This money goes into conservation efforts, which include policing conservation areas for poachers.

2. The money spent on hunting puts a value on the animals, which incentives locals to conserve them. A lot of these animals are dangerous to locals. Consider being a father, living in an area with lions as a potential danger to your family. A lot of locals would simply poison the lions to be rid of them. Also the meat of the animal is generally given to the locals, in the case of elephants or rhinos that's a significant amount of food.

3. The animals which are often selective for hunting are old, or dangerous. When male bulls pass their breeding age, they continue to compete with young males. So they will be killing young males, and offspring of those males even though they are no longer breeding themselves. Culling the old bulls helps bring up the population.

I'm sorry, but until I see some actual proof, not anecdotal evidence floating around the internet, I'm going to assume this is PR from the hunting lobby. I have nothing against hunting, I grew up in rural Missouri doing it, but I don't believe in big game hunting.

As far as woods, we are going to have to accept that the world is changing (for good or bad it is always changing) and woods are disappearing, and change our expectations of what tone woods we want on basses and guitars. Rosewood and ebony aren't the only woods that are good for building instruments. Leo Fender didn't choose alder, maple and ash because they were good tone woods, he chose them because they were cheap and readily available. And there are many other options as well, like poplar. I've had basses made of poplar that sounded great. Hell, I have a plywood and masonite Danelectro that sounds great.

 

[Shanannigan]

I'm sorry, but until I see some actual proof, not anecdotal evidence floating around the internet, I'm going to assume this is PR from the hunting lobby. I have nothing against hunting, I grew up in rural Missouri doing it, but I don't believe in big game hunting.

As far as woods, we are going to have to accept that the world is changing (for good or bad it is always changing) and woods are disappearing, and change our expectations of what tone woods we want on basses and guitars. Rosewood and ebony aren't the only woods that are good for building instruments. Leo Fender didn't choose alder, maple and ash because they were good tone woods, he chose them because they were cheap and readily available. And there are many other options as well, like poplar. I've had basses made of poplar that sounded great. Hell, I have a plywood and masonite Danelectro that sounds great.

I agree when it comes to woods we have to find alternatives. Check out the video I posted on page 2 (I think) of Chris Larkin talking about the woods he uses mostly sourced in Ireland where he lives, and how tropical woods aren't necessary for building beautiful sounding/looking instruments.

For what it's worth, this is a good article covering the black rhino. It was a hunter being harrassed after shooting one of them that lead me to look into that stuff. Black rhino hunt: Why killing one bull is worth it for conservation - CNN

I'm not really a fan of big game hunting myself, but I haven't seen proof of anything else that helps conserve these animals. It seems like poaching is going to happen whether or not legal hunters are hunting these animals, but the money the hunts provide can help police them. I know there is an issue with corrupt governments in those areas siphoning the money, so that's something that needs to be solved. A lot of big game hunters that I've talked to seem to care quite a bit about conservation and want to find ways to make sure that money is used for it's intended purpose, after all they can't hunt an extinct species. As far as culling older and/or aggressive bulls to help population growth, that's pretty much proven to be effective as far as I'm aware.

 

[Jeff Scott]

...they are ethnically sourced.

Good one!

 

[Brawley]

To be clear, all species of Dalbergia simply require a permit from the exporting country and one from the importing country. These restrictions are the same as those that have been in place for mahogany for many years, with one poorly written exception. Once the harvested mahogany is turned into a finished product, there are no more permits. This nuance has the effect of overwhelming the world's managing authorities, to the point that they can't handle all the permit traffic for musical instruments. After a year, they are just rubber-stamping and collecting fees in most countries, negating any benefit to the planet.

They (Dalbergia aka Rosewood) are not banned or illegal. India has a robust, infinitely sustainable, ethical and legal Rosewood business run by the Indian government. Still as available as ever, just a hassle and added expense, causing price increases for nothing.

 

[marmadaddy]

I really hate to be that guy who ignores the political rants and brings the thread back to it's original purpose, but I have a question:

I live in the US and have some gigs coming up in Canada. The two basses I'd like to bring both have 20+ year old Indian Rosewood fretboards. My reading of the regulations is that I have nothing to worry about, but does anyone have any specific advice regarding what problems I could run into and what I can do to mitigate said potential problems?