Stoner/Doom Bassists Thread, Part 90: Maxed Out

[Turkeypills]

I'm pondering my next bass purchase and wanted to pick some brains. My current project has some doom and stoner elements but occasionally pick up the pace a little bit. We have two tunings, CGCF and BEADG. I've managed to find some basses that work pretty good with the drop C tuning, but the B tuning is really causing a problem for me. I'm having a heck of a time finding either a 5 string with the right combination of warmth and articulation, or a 4 string I don't care about destroying the nut on to put a .125 or .130 set on.
I watched a bunch of live performances of bands I like (Cathedral [With the Dead], Sword, Electric Wizard, Sleep, Death Penalty, Vintage Caravan) and it seems like ALL anyone uses is Fender P & Js, and Ricks. What's up with that? Is it because they look old and retro? If its for the tone, aren't there a million other P and J basses in the world? I almost never seen doom\stoner\sludge bands using 5 string basses, so do they just bore out the nut and use the heaviest part of a 5 string set?

Ps, Js and Rics just work in many situations.

@socialleper I brought my old Squier P out of retirement for BEAD as an experiment and have been pleased with it. I upgraded the bridge to a BAII and put in EMG Geezer Butler's. For strings, I just used a five-string set and dropped the G. The old Squier neck took some extra tweaking to get it to handle the added tension, but it's held up pretty well. The B has good tension, and does well at A#, too.

I think a T-bird could do BEAD well, too, but would probably need a different bridge than the raised three-point version. That's just a hunch, really.

.

Big strings, GZR and a BAII are a winning combo.

Are flats popular in the style because they are a little stiffer or becausr they deaden the attack of the notes?

They do take some of the grit away, but if eqed properly they can actually have a brighter, clanky attack.

I like flats but i find in general they don't work well with most effects. Put running a P-bass with flats straight into an SVT is pretty awesome.

I have not had this issue. In fact they make a fuzz sound more like a fuzz to me and less like a distortion.

Less tension with BEAD than EADG. Thicker strings mean less tension, so B is significantly looser than G.

There are more factors to consider. Like tuning. I play in C standard and if I use the BEAD from a 5 string set there is actually quite a bit more tension than normal strings tuned to standard. One of the biggest leaps in tension is from the big B being up tuned. Also with balanced sets, there is equal tension across all 4 strings, I.e. The G is not tighter than the B.

 

[Pelham Bleu]

Less tension with BEAD than EADG. Thicker strings mean less tension, so B is significantly looser than G.

Hmm, I never thought of that. The neck/action's gone wonky on me a couple times so I assumed it was added tension, but probably just old, cheap neck syndrome.

 

[The_Janitor]

Hmm, I never thought of that. The neck/action's gone wonky on me a couple times so I assumed it was added tension, but probably just old, cheap neck syndrome.

Yeah, the neck on my Warlock (only a few years newer than yours from what I can tell) is permanently borked. Thought I did it with BEAD until I learned about big strings being lower tension. It's just old and tired, also being super thin probably doesn't help with long-term stability either.

 

[Pelham Bleu]

Yeah, the neck on my Warlock (only a few years newer than yours from what I can tell) is permanently borked. Thought I did it with BEAD until I learned about big strings being lower tension. It's just old and tired, also being super thin probably doesn't help with long-term stability either.

After the latest tweaking, my Squier neck's held steady for about 2-3 mos, so I'm happy with that. I feel it may give up the ghost soon and I'll just nab a used MIM Fender or something like that.

Edit: love that Warlock neck! Amazing how that $50 bass became my go-to for all C-stnd. stuff.

 

[Corey Y]

I'm pondering my next bass purchase and wanted to pick some brains. My current project has some doom and stoner elements but occasionally pick up the pace a little bit. We have two tunings, CGCF and BEADG. I've managed to find some basses that work pretty good with the drop C tuning, but the B tuning is really causing a problem for me. I'm having a heck of a time finding either a 5 string with the right combination of warmth and articulation, or a 4 string I don't care about destroying the nut on to put a .125 or .130 set on.
I watched a bunch of live performances of bands I like (Cathedral [With the Dead], Sword, Electric Wizard, Sleep, Death Penalty, Vintage Caravan) and it seems like ALL anyone uses is Fender P & Js, and Ricks. What's up with that? Is it because they look old and retro? If its for the tone, aren't there a million other P and J basses in the world? I almost never seen doom\stoner\sludge bands using 5 string basses, so do they just bore out the nut and use the heaviest part of a 5 string set?

They're just well established bass tones (that have a well established look too) and you can make any bass work for BEAD tuning with the proper setup and strings. Doesn't require any special pickup or scale length. Most of my BEAD basses have been P basses, but I've also had good results with a Stingray, an Iceman and others. I never tuned my Ric that low when that was my main bass, as I used it mostly for punk and more traditional doom metal in Eb or D tuning. If you like the sound of a 4 string you have, it will sound that way in B, more or less. I would just pick something, get a heavy set of strings (5 string set minus the smallest works in a pinch) and have it properly setup for the tuning you want. It's really like any other bass purchase. Pick something you like the sound of, look of and feel of in whatever proportion works for your taste and budget.

 

[Turkeypills]

After the latest tweaking, my Squier neck's held steady for about 2-3 mos, so I'm happy with that. I feel it may give up the ghost soon and I'll just nab a used MIM Fender or something like that.

Edit: love that Warlock neck! Amazing how that $50 bass became my go-to for all C-stnd. stuff.

Seasonal change yo. A lot of people forget that instruments generally need a setup a couple times a year to a compensate wood shrinkage/growth due to temp and humidity.

 

[Pelham Bleu]

Seasonal change yo. A lot of people forget that instruments generally need a setup a couple times a year to a compensate wood shrinkage/growth due to temp and humidity.

Yeah, definitely. I'm worried that the old neck can only take a couple more tweaks. It's a little twisted as-is. Luckily, so is my playing, so it's complimentary.

 

[socialleper]

They're just well established bass tones (that have a well established look too) and you can make any bass work for BEAD tuning with the proper setup and strings. Doesn't require any special pickup or scale length. Most of my BEAD basses have been P basses, but I've also had good results with a Stingray, an Iceman and others. I never tuned my Ric that low when that was my main bass, as I used it mostly for punk and more traditional doom metal in Eb or D tuning. If you like the sound of a 4 string you have, it will sound that way in B, more or less. I would just pick something, get a heavy set of strings (5 string set minus the smallest works in a pinch) and have it properly setup for the tuning you want. It's really like any other bass purchase. Pick something you like the sound of, look of and feel of in whatever proportion works for your taste and budget.

I wouldn't figure that the physical being of the bass mattered much. I know a 35" scale helps if you want to down tune, and there are some subtle tone differences between 21 and 24 frets, but with a little work most basses can do it.
What I'm wondering is if there is something particular about the tones or frequencies that make them more popular. This style of music is aurally dense and it is the particular texture of the "wall of sound" the band creates that defines them. What part the bass plays in that is something I'm still trying to sort out. In the classic three piece, or 4 piece with 1 guitar and 1 bass, the bass can be more defined. A 2 guitar band starts becoming a unique challenge because the low tuning and heavy distortion eats up a lot of space where the bass usually lives. Personally, I find a lot of bassists MIA on doom\stoner recordings.
My oldest musical inclinations are death metal and grind, but my love for Bolt Thrower and riffs led me to these genres. My favorite tones are tech death metal players with very noticeable tones. I tried that with my Lakland in my current band and could just never stick the landing, so to speak.
That's why I'm thinking about something else. Fenders bore me to tears and I find Ricks physically impossible to play, so they aren't really options for me. That's why I'm wondering if there is something particular about the instruments that are commonly used I can transpose over to instruments that better suit my tastes.

 

[The_Janitor]

After the latest tweaking, my Squier neck's held steady for about 2-3 mos, so I'm happy with that. I feel it may give up the ghost soon and I'll just nab a used MIM Fender or something like that.

Edit: love that Warlock neck! Amazing how that $50 bass became my go-to for all C-stnd. stuff.

Yeah, they're ridiculously easy to play, kind of miss having one in good shape. I've been surfing ebay on and off for a new neck, but it's the classic cheap instrument problem - i could just buy a whole warlock bass for less than the cost of a neck. Yeah I could slap the neck on the old bass, but I don't really want a body and a bunch of parts laying around that I'll have no use for.

 

[Corey Y]

I wouldn't figure that the physical being of the bass mattered much. I know a 35" scale helps if you want to down tune, and there are some subtle tone differences between 21 and 24 frets, but with a little work most basses can do it.
What I'm wondering is if there is something particular about the tones or frequencies that make them more popular. This style of music is aurally dense and it is the particular texture of the "wall of sound" the band creates that defines them. What part the bass plays in that is something I'm still trying to sort out. In the classic three piece, or 4 piece with 1 guitar and 1 bass, the bass can be more defined. A 2 guitar band starts becoming a unique challenge because the low tuning and heavy distortion eats up a lot of space where the bass usually lives. Personally, I find a lot of bassists MIA on doom\stoner recordings.
My oldest musical inclinations are death metal and grind, but my love for Bolt Thrower and riffs led me to these genres. My favorite tones are tech death metal players with very noticeable tones. I tried that with my Lakland in my current band and could just never stick the landing, so to speak.
That's why I'm thinking about something else. Fenders bore me to tears and I find Ricks physically impossible to play, so they aren't really options for me. That's why I'm wondering if there is something particular about the instruments that are commonly used I can transpose over to instruments that better suit my tastes.

My short answer would be that the popularity of Fender and Rickenbacker basses in this genre is really just a reflection of their popularity in classic rock and heavy metal in general. They're known quantities and people just downtune and pile on fuzz/distortion/effects on top of that. Sometimes in these genres I think people think they don't really hear the bass, because there's no way for it to be gone. There's a lot of dense unison playing and tones. Most of the guitar tones are heavy, but not nearly as heavy as you think solo. There are a lot of exceptions, but those are the bands people generally cite as the bass standing out more, it's just a function of arrangement and mix in general. Sometimes that has a snake eating its own tail effect on bands. Bands think that the guitar has to be all encompassingly heavy and bassy and so they leave no room for bass, so it's hard to get a good tone in the mix. Then they go into the studio and no self respecting engineer will let that pass and it gets massaged towards something reasonable and workable, but then that band goes out and plays live and then everything just becomes a big throbbing mass of heavy and it perpetuates. Any time you just try to cram any specific bass tone into an existing band mix it will get really tricky, the whole mix has to evolve together to be balanced and make things work. I deal with this all the time when I've recorded heavy bands. It usually necessitates taking 30 minutes to an hour out of productive time to make a quick sample recording/mix to prove to them that everything will work together and not every individual instrument needs to sound like armageddon. I would stick with whatever bass you personally like and work with the effects, amp, cab(s) and settings to dial everything in and keep in mind that those really crushing tones might only be applicable for solo moments or the rest of the mix might have to be slightly different to make that work in context.

 

[Pelham Bleu]

every individual instrument needs to sound like armageddon.

Clipping this completely out-of-context portion for my sig!

 

[Squanch72]

Poland must be the land of Space Rock, I love bands like this.

 

[Corey Y]

Clipping this completely out-of-context portion for my sig!

You scamp.

 

[bassboysam]

Ps, Js and Rics just work in many situations.

.

Big strings, GZR and a BAII are a winning combo.



They do take some of the grit away, but if eqed properly they can actually have a brighter, clanky attack.




I have not had this issue. In fact they make a fuzz sound more like a fuzz to me and less like a distortion.



There are more factors to consider. Like tuning. I play in C standard and if I use the BEAD from a 5 string set there is actually quite a bit more tension than normal strings tuned to standard. One of the biggest leaps in tension is from the big B being up tuned. Also with balanced sets, there is equal tension across all 4 strings, I.e. The G is not tighter than the B.

pedals that are sensitive to input gain like the rat tail sound weird because the sustain dies abruptly and you go from distorted tones to clean tones at inopportune times. that has been my experience.

 

[mc_muench]

Clipping this completely out-of-context portion for my sig!

That quote of mine in your sig is still like one of the best blurbs ive ever written hah.

 

[Pelham Bleu]

That quote of mine in your sig is still like one of the best blurbs ive ever written hah.

It's stood the test of time.

 

[Jolagh]

First show for my Frequency Therapy went freqqin great!!! See what i did there? 20 mins is a really long time when just standing up there diddling some knobs, Hah. I went full scale for the first time ever, 3 amps and 5 cabs. Rockmaster into 610 and 412 for highs, vulcan into 215 for mids and booster through the 810 and folowd 18 for lows. I did some effect separation, like my EQ and blue box went just to the lows rig. But then my delay and reverbs went to everything, which kinda muddied things more than I woulda liked. Think I may separate things a little bit more next time. Like keep the modulation out of the lows, to get the almost beat like oscillations to stay clear. But of course no one noticed anything wrong anyway haha. Super fun cant wait to book my next one.

View attachment 905618

Do you have roadies or something. I use a pretty heavy amp but just the though of moving that much stuff makes my back hurt.

Also i use a 35" spector Rebop mm5 with the darkglass tone capsule in my Drop B tuned sludge band. Sounds great, has a much better B than the fender p bass i was using for awhile.

 

[socialleper]

I know pedals are a crap shoot, and with the hundreds of different dirt pedals out there, its impossible to say "This will give you a doom\stoner tone."
But what about the amps? I read some posts somewhere else where people seemed to think any bass will do, but the amps and cabs are a key factor. People all over TB have Fenders, but in this genre light weight mini rigs with class D SS amps and 30lbs 112 Neo cabs don't seem to fly. In this context do old tube amps and heavy fridges really make a difference, or is it a retro thing and just pure volume?
I find a little of this "more is more" mentality, when it comes to amps, counter intuitive. If you are playing dumps without proper PAs, you would want more cabs for volume, but invariably the stages aren't big enough for one stack per player, let alone more. However Sleep or Electric wizard are daisy chaining 3-4 amps even though they are playing venues with perfectly good sound reinforcement.

 

[Turkeypills]

pedals that are sensitive to input gain like the rat tail sound weird because the sustain dies abruptly and you go from distorted tones to clean tones at inopportune times. that has been my experience.

Interesting. I haven't come across that issue either. Sustain has almost never been a string issue for me and almost exclusively a bass issue. Maybe it's just the brand of flats. I'm not sure. I'm certain your experiences are valid though, I just haven't had them.

I know pedals are a crap shoot, and with the hundreds of different dirt pedals out there, its impossible to say "This will give you a doom\stoner tone."
But what about the amps? I read some posts somewhere else where people seemed to think any bass will do, but the amps and cabs are a key factor. People all over TB have Fenders, but in this genre light weight mini rigs with class D SS amps and 30lbs 112 Neo cabs don't seem to fly. In this context do old tube amps and heavy fridges really make a difference, or is it a retro thing and just pure volume?
I find a little of this "more is more" mentality, when it comes to amps, counter intuitive. If you are playing dumps without proper PAs, you would want more cabs for volume, but invariably the stages aren't big enough for one stack per player, let alone more. However Sleep or Electric wizard are daisy chaining 3-4 amps even though they are playing venues with perfectly good sound reinforcement.

I would think it is a retro/volume thing. Though, that kind of gear does have a tone that I have yet to find in modern equipment. There are a **** ton of amps I haven't played though. Most of the venues I play are big enough for whatever we want to bring. We adjust horizontally or vertically depending on stage size with both of the guitarists downsizing to full stacks versus dual half stacks. I am not sure I understand the full stack per person comment though. I mean if you have one cab and can build vertically then there is no reason why a full stack isn't doable. If for some reason I cannot fit the duallies on their side on stage, I would leave them at home and bring the 810. Alternatively when we played with Juscifer, they had so many cabs on stage that we filled the rest of the stage with our cabs and played on the floor(the stage was like 12-18" tall). It was a little tight on stage, but that was probably one of the more fun shows I've played because we were right in everyones faces.

 

[kleinenenten]

I know pedals are a crap shoot, and with the hundreds of different dirt pedals out there, its impossible to say "This will give you a doom\stoner tone."
But what about the amps? I read some posts somewhere else where people seemed to think any bass will do, but the amps and cabs are a key factor. People all over TB have Fenders, but in this genre light weight mini rigs with class D SS amps and 30lbs 112 Neo cabs don't seem to fly. In this context do old tube amps and heavy fridges really make a difference, or is it a retro thing and just pure volume?
I find a little of this "more is more" mentality, when it comes to amps, counter intuitive. If you are playing dumps without proper PAs, you would want more cabs for volume, but invariably the stages aren't big enough for one stack per player, let alone more. However Sleep or Electric wizard are daisy chaining 3-4 amps even though they are playing venues with perfectly good sound reinforcement.

All I know is that I have no volume problems with my tubeless GK 700RB-II and a matching 410. I also have no desire to "upgrade" to a tube rig.