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Stoner/Doom Bassists Thread, Part 90: Maxed Out

All I know is that I have no volume problems with my tubeless GK 700RB-II and a matching 410. I also have no desire to "upgrade" to a tube rig.

Though I am 90% all tube at this point, I have a lot of love for certain SS amps. This is one of them. My old SVT4 and Sunn Beta are also sweet and on this list as is that Acoustic rig I played a few weeks back. I have little experience with SS peavey stuff outside of a microamp that I had as a first amp and the beat to hell 400 series I have. The microamp was a killer little practice amp. The 400 series sounds a bit like a cow fart but I am sure there are issues under the hood.
 
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For whatever it's worth, the smallest stage I've ever played on was in my last doom metal band. I played the Traynor YBA-1 I used to have, into my Ampeg 810. Both the guitarists used full stacks. There was about enough room to stand in front of the amps. The PA sucked, we were the loudest band of the night and we were blowing hair back. It was a Halloween show, not a doom metal crowd and no one complained.

+1 for GK head as a good alternate to tube monsters. Tube monsters are good if you can make it happen. I have my little 800w Class D head and super efficient 2x15 cab and it's super loud and lots of low end, but I still prefer Mr. Grumpy into my 810.
 
Though I am 90% all tube at this point, I have a lot of love for certain SS amps. This is one of them. My old SVT4 and Sunn Beta are also sweet and on this list as is that Acoustic rig I played a few weeks back. I have little experience with SS peavey stuff outside of a microamp that I had as a first amp and the beat to hell 400 series I have. The microamp was a killer little practice amp. The 400 series sounds a bit like a cow fart but I am sure there are issues under the hood.
Yeah, I used to think big old Ampeg tube amps were "the" rig to aim for. Then, when I started seriously looking at amps, the GK stuff just killed it for me. Nothing else just sounds right anymore. If I ever need more volume, I can add my 2nd "backup" 410. Or just get 1001RB-II. Both would be overkill right now, as my current amp can destroy the half stacks it currently has to deal with and doesn't even break a sweat.
 
Personally I use my tube head for tone way more than looks. It's a rack mount SVT, not exactly dripping vintage vibe. It sounds incredible. I use an SWR 610 with it and while it's a heavy, deep cab it's not that visually imposing on the stage. Together they're loud enough to drown out a couple of 100W half stacks and sound great while doing so, which is what matters most to me. Everybody's different.
 
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Digging these bands, thanks for the suggestions. Seems lots of female fronted- metal bands have really shoegazy kinda lyrics. I can dig that.

It's a nice change of pace from the normal wizards, drugs, drug-wizards and wizard-drugs topics that so many doom bands sing about.

Jex Thoth does a lot of stuff about weird occult stuff which can be pretty cool.
 
Yeah, I'm not going to drink anymore. I've been in a lot of trouble over the years because of it. It just doesn't work for me, it never really did. I don't have enough self control to relax and have a couple. I'm done being a drunk fat slob. I've been hitting the gym and eating better, lost 25lbs so far. I'm turning this franchise around! haha
Unfortunately I quit all my bands to get on the right path. Maybe when this is all over I'll get something going again. I just wanted to set up good habits. I need more discipline with my eating on the weekends. Still need to get my macros in order. But, you know baby steps.
I've had to curtail my drinking a lot due to digestive health issues, most recently, celiac.

Having writing issues. We have a great singer, and I want to utilise her more, but our guitarist wants us to move in a more sludgy, electric wizard/ sleepy direction, which doesn't really lend itself to interesting vocal melodies.

Anyone know any doomy bands with wicked vocals? My kind of vocal melody 'muse' is The Sword, but they are more stoner than doom.
Chrch and Invalid Link Removed.

I'm pondering my next bass purchase and wanted to pick some brains. My current project has some doom and stoner elements but occasionally pick up the pace a little bit. We have two tunings, CGCF and BEADG. I've managed to find some basses that work pretty good with the drop C tuning, but the B tuning is really causing a problem for me. I'm having a heck of a time finding either a 5 string with the right combination of warmth and articulation, or a 4 string I don't care about destroying the nut on to put a .125 or .130 set on.
I watched a bunch of live performances of bands I like (Cathedral [With the Dead], Sword, Electric Wizard, Sleep, Death Penalty, Vintage Caravan) and it seems like ALL anyone uses is Fender P & Js, and Ricks. What's up with that? Is it because they look old and retro? If its for the tone, aren't there a million other P and J basses in the world? I almost never seen doom\stoner\sludge bands using 5 string basses, so do they just bore out the nut and use the heaviest part of a 5 string set?
Generally we just bore out the nut and use large gauge strings. It's a replaceable part. I use a .130 gauge B string for my low tuned basses.

I've pointed this out before, but I see a lot of people on talkbass complaining about the B string sounding bad on their 5s, whereas I almost never see anyone complain about a bad B string on a BEAD tuned 4.

I have three BEAD tuned basses. A heavily modded Peavey, a somewhat electronically modded Epiphone, and a Rickenbacker 4003S. They all sound great.

As to why people use the basses they do, admittedly part of it is almost certainly image.

Part of it is the tone, though. Partly because those basses tend to have tones that work really well in the kinds of mixes we find ourselves in. Also, they are proven to work pretty predictably well with effects, which is a big deal in doom. In my experience, passive electronics seem to work better with effects.

I have seen bassists use other kinds of instruments, though. A fair number of T-birds, and Ron from Bongripper was using a Gibson RD before he got his custom Electrical Guitar Company bass. Dave from Neurosis uses mainly Ibanez basses. I've seen old Guild B-300 series basses and Ovation Magnums used, too. I've seen a fair number of Peaveys used, and the dude from Badr Vogu uses a Warwick.

I'm going to sell off at least 1 55-02 to pay for something. I'd like to try to keep it as close to $1k as possible. Of course if there is some incredible value out there that's perfect for this style that's cheap, I'm all ears.
Why not just use the 55-02? If you have more than one, put them in different tunings.

I've heard that about them, and I've tried the Ibanez fanned fret bass.
There are tons of 35" scale basses out there, or evolved setups like the Dingwall that seem to get ignored by Doom\Stoner players. Why is that?
Or even just brands outside of Fender. I can't recall ever seeing a band in this style with a G&L,Lakland, Sadowsky, or even a Yamaha BB bass.
I've seen G&Ls. Geezer Butler uses Laklands. Sadowsky basses are likely too unaffordable and probably perceived as too hi-fi (even if unfairly).

They're just well established bass tones (that have a well established look too) and you can make any bass work for BEAD tuning with the proper setup and strings. Doesn't require any special pickup or scale length. Most of my BEAD basses have been P basses, but I've also had good results with a Stingray, an Iceman and others. I never tuned my Ric that low when that was my main bass, as I used it mostly for punk and more traditional doom metal in Eb or D tuning. If you like the sound of a 4 string you have, it will sound that way in B, more or less. I would just pick something, get a heavy set of strings (5 string set minus the smallest works in a pinch) and have it properly setup for the tuning you want. It's really like any other bass purchase. Pick something you like the sound of, look of and feel of in whatever proportion works for your taste and budget.
Pretty much. I don't really get the idea that only a longer scale bass will sound good in BEAD. I've never had a bass that didn't. I used my old banger Peavey as my bass in Catapult for all of the first three years I was in the band, and it's a budget instrument.

I wouldn't figure that the physical being of the bass mattered much. I know a 35" scale helps if you want to down tune, and there are some subtle tone differences between 21 and 24 frets, but with a little work most basses can do it.
What I'm wondering is if there is something particular about the tones or frequencies that make them more popular. This style of music is aurally dense and it is the particular texture of the "wall of sound" the band creates that defines them. What part the bass plays in that is something I'm still trying to sort out. In the classic three piece, or 4 piece with 1 guitar and 1 bass, the bass can be more defined. A 2 guitar band starts becoming a unique challenge because the low tuning and heavy distortion eats up a lot of space where the bass usually lives. Personally, I find a lot of bassists MIA on doom\stoner recordings.
My oldest musical inclinations are death metal and grind, but my love for Bolt Thrower and riffs led me to these genres. My favorite tones are tech death metal players with very noticeable tones. I tried that with my Lakland in my current band and could just never stick the landing, so to speak.
That's why I'm thinking about something else. Fenders bore me to tears and I find Ricks physically impossible to play, so they aren't really options for me. That's why I'm wondering if there is something particular about the instruments that are commonly used I can transpose over to instruments that better suit my tastes.
I think you might be mistaking some of the wall of sound for guitar when it's actually bass. Like the link to Chrch I posted earlier in this reply, most of the sound is actually bass. Many people tend to assume that any overdrive they're hearing is guitar, when in doom, it's just as likely to be the bass.

The thing is, I find bass in most death metal to be practically inaudible, but that's metal mixes in general, of basically every subgenre but doom.

A lot of the trick to doom mixes has to do with being where the guitars aren't... in bands where the guitars have a lot of low end, this is why the bass ends up sounding really ganky. I use a very different tone in Catapult versus in Dustern. In Catapult there are three guitars at times, so I tend to go for a midrange spike around 500 hz. In Dustern there's only one guitar, and the guitar sound is much more midrangey, so I go for a much bassier tone and roll off some of the highs.

I know pedals are a crap shoot, and with the hundreds of different dirt pedals out there, its impossible to say "This will give you a doom\stoner tone."
But what about the amps? I read some posts somewhere else where people seemed to think any bass will do, but the amps and cabs are a key factor. People all over TB have Fenders, but in this genre light weight mini rigs with class D SS amps and 30lbs 112 Neo cabs don't seem to fly. In this context do old tube amps and heavy fridges really make a difference, or is it a retro thing and just pure volume?
I find a little of this "more is more" mentality, when it comes to amps, counter intuitive. If you are playing dumps without proper PAs, you would want more cabs for volume, but invariably the stages aren't big enough for one stack per player, let alone more. However Sleep or Electric wizard are daisy chaining 3-4 amps even though they are playing venues with perfectly good sound reinforcement.
The tendency towards big tube amps and so forth I think partly rests with these, in a way, being more 'user friendly' for a couple reasons.

1. Tube amps generally have less power than solid state amps and so you stand less chance of blowing your cabs when turning way up and playing with heavy fuzz (less, you can still blow up your speakers), especially if you have lots of cabs.
2. Some amps (including many tube amps and some solid state amps) sound nicer turned way up past the point of clean volume than others.
3. Old-ass primitive amps can be near infinitely repairable, which can be kinda important.

Generally a larger cab is mostly just taller than a smaller one, and so doesn't actually take up more stage space. My 2x15 doesn't really take up more room on stage than my 1x15. Actually less, in one way, since it isn't as deep.

For a lot of people in doom, including myself, the volume is coming from using a bigass loud cab. My head is only 180 watts, not much for a bass amp. But it handles being turned up without sounding bad, and I run it through a really loud cab.

That said, a tube amp isn't required. My cab actually makes the biggest difference in my tone, as far as all my gear goes. I've played different basses and even a different amp while mine was in the shop (drummer's GK head, nice amp), and still sounded mostly the same.

I play in a six piece where every guitarist (there are three) has a half-stack and one of them also plays keyboards, and the singer plays additional percussion. Some of our first gigs were at house parties. So I think the issue of big amps taking up too much room onstage is kinda exaggerated here on talkbass.
 
image.jpeg

This into the gk and bassic is quite awesome. So far univibe and step phase modes on the Marshall are my favorite. I have it set for slow and deep. Keys setting so far is tremolo organ, it's infinite sustain and throb combined with the slow vibe make a heart beat, the step phase just a super creepy sequencer. I can totally see this with an expression pedal kicking ass. Lap steel will love it too I bet.

Need a looper...
 
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I've had to curtail my drinking a lot due to digestive health issues, most recently, celiac.


Chrch and Invalid Link Removed.


Generally we just bore out the nut and use large gauge strings. It's a replaceable part. I use a .130 gauge B string for my low tuned basses.

I've pointed this out before, but I see a lot of people on talkbass complaining about the B string sounding bad on their 5s, whereas I almost never see anyone complain about a bad B string on a BEAD tuned 4.

I have three BEAD tuned basses. A heavily modded Peavey, a somewhat electronically modded Epiphone, and a Rickenbacker 4003S. They all sound great.

As to why people use the basses they do, admittedly part of it is almost certainly image.

Part of it is the tone, though. Partly because those basses tend to have tones that work really well in the kinds of mixes we find ourselves in. Also, they are proven to work pretty predictably well with effects, which is a big deal in doom. In my experience, passive electronics seem to work better with effects.

I have seen bassists use other kinds of instruments, though. A fair number of T-birds, and Ron from Bongripper was using a Gibson RD before he got his custom Electrical Guitar Company bass. Dave from Neurosis uses mainly Ibanez basses. I've seen old Guild B-300 series basses and Ovation Magnums used, too. I've seen a fair number of Peaveys used, and the dude from Badr Vogu uses a Warwick.


Why not just use the 55-02? If you have more than one, put them in different tunings.


I've seen G&Ls. Geezer Butler uses Laklands. Sadowsky basses are likely too unaffordable and probably perceived as too hi-fi (even if unfairly).


Pretty much. I don't really get the idea that only a longer scale bass will sound good in BEAD. I've never had a bass that didn't. I used my old banger Peavey as my bass in Catapult for all of the first three years I was in the band, and it's a budget instrument.


I think you might be mistaking some of the wall of sound for guitar when it's actually bass. Like the link to Chrch I posted earlier in this reply, most of the sound is actually bass. Many people tend to assume that any overdrive they're hearing is guitar, when in doom, it's just as likely to be the bass.

The thing is, I find bass in most death metal to be practically inaudible, but that's metal mixes in general, of basically every subgenre but doom.

A lot of the trick to doom mixes has to do with being where the guitars aren't... in bands where the guitars have a lot of low end, this is why the bass ends up sounding really ganky. I use a very different tone in Catapult versus in Dustern. In Catapult there are three guitars at times, so I tend to go for a midrange spike around 500 hz. In Dustern there's only one guitar, and the guitar sound is much more midrangey, so I go for a much bassier tone and roll off some of the highs.


The tendency towards big tube amps and so forth I think partly rests with these, in a way, being more 'user friendly' for a couple reasons.

1. Tube amps generally have less power than solid state amps and so you stand less chance of blowing your cabs when turning way up and playing with heavy fuzz (less, you can still blow up your speakers), especially if you have lots of cabs.
2. Some amps (including many tube amps and some solid state amps) sound nicer turned way up past the point of clean volume than others.
3. Old-ass primitive amps can be near infinitely repairable, which can be kinda important.

Generally a larger cab is mostly just taller than a smaller one, and so doesn't actually take up more stage space. My 2x15 doesn't really take up more room on stage than my 1x15. Actually less, in one way, since it isn't as deep.

For a lot of people in doom, including myself, the volume is coming from using a bigass loud cab. My head is only 180 watts, not much for a bass amp. But it handles being turned up without sounding bad, and I run it through a really loud cab.

That said, a tube amp isn't required. My cab actually makes the biggest difference in my tone, as far as all my gear goes. I've played different basses and even a different amp while mine was in the shop (drummer's GK head, nice amp), and still sounded mostly the same.

I play in a six piece where every guitarist (there are three) has a half-stack and one of them also plays keyboards, and the singer plays additional percussion. Some of our first gigs were at house parties. So I think the issue of big amps taking up too much room onstage is kinda exaggerated here on talkbass.

Wow, so much good information here, I don't know where to start.
I use a 44-02 for CGCF songs no problem, but for some reason, even though the 55-02 is the same year and has the same electronics, it doesn't sound the same. If I roll it to the neck pickup I don't get the same "single coil" tone, and the bridge doesn't sound right in the mix. Its hard to explain, but it just doesn't get there. Its just a half step (technically) from C to B, but for some reason that is a gulf that can't be easily crossed. The goal was to have the two instruments sound consistent with each other. On my last CD I didn't like how I could clearly make out a huge tonal difference between the 44-02 with Barts and a 44-02 I have with Delanos. But this didn't do the trick.
It is an interesting observation that for some reason the B on a 5 seems to be a moving target for bass players while a restrung 4 works pretty easily. I'm going to try an LTD TA-600 I've used before in B this week. It just couldn't sound more different from the Lakland.
Geezer plays a Lakland P these days, and I've been looking around at those. I have trouble validating $700-$900 for a just a P bass, an instrument that sounds the same whether its $300 or $1500. I've been fishing around for a Ibanez RB 650, and I'm also considering a Yamaha BB424x\425X (I dig Jimmy Bain's tone back on Dio's early albums), or even a cheap LTD Vintage 204\214. I like PJ basses more than Ps.
I don't like 99% of Ampeg's cabs, but man, I can't deny that a 8x10 fridge sounds nice. There is just no way in hell for me to move one of those damn things. When I see these guys lugging around their heavy tube heads and solid wood Emperor look-alike cabs, it makes my back hurt just thinking about it. Since I've spent very little time with tube bass heads, I can't help but wonder if I'm not missing something. The snob in me wants to get into them, but the practical part of me loves throwing my Shuttle head over over my shoulder while I lift a GK Neo 112 with each hand. Grass Is Greener mentality, right?
My philosophy on bass is similar, in that it needs to find its own space. The soundscape that is considered the norm for Doom\Stoner is somewhat narrow. If you thin the guitars out or have the bass play with a raspier tone a la 80s thrash, you basically end up with classic heavy metal. My personal observation is that the heavily saturated, wooly, down tuned tones in this genre don't leave a lot of space for the bass. Sleep pans their stuff so both Al and Matt have their space. I often have trouble hearing Leo Smee over Gaz's thick guitars, but when I do, I dig it. Unless I'm wearing good headphones I can never hear Troy Sanders or Brian Richie. Maybe I'm listening to it wrong, but I'm not sure why Electric Wizard has a bass player, I can never make him out. I like the bass on the new Kylesa, but I think their volume swings give them more room for the bass.
If I go over the guitar it just doesn't sound right, if I go under them, its a muddy mess and I can't make out what I'm playing. I dunno, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. Of course I can't ask the guitar players because they really only care about their playing and rarely notice anything I'm going. When we went into the studio last, it was the first time they heard half the fills I'd been doing for a year. Balls.
 
I for the first time in a couple years have found a one amp set that can handle what I need being in LOUD 3 piece stuffz...

For those of you who arent in the PVY KVLT. A guy recreated an early F-800B preamp into a pedal and made a small number of them. Of course I ordered one and got it last week before Duluth but didnt want to mess with it until I got back. Well I wish I had. I basically own a F-800B now and its fuggin great. I havent been able to only run one head and be happy with the volume/tone since early VEGA days.

IMG_20160712_200206.jpg
 
@ the warlock talk.

I stripped 2 Warlock bodies down to refinish this week. One was plywood and one looks like ash of some sort.
I think the ash body must be a much older body, the plywood is a 90's Korean model I think. It also has a much smaller neck pocket.

I have a transistional BC Rich Platinum from the six month gap between one of the Ricos assuming control from Class Axe and before selling to Hanser. They claim it's solid "chesswood," but no one ever really says what the hell chesswood is. Near as I can tell it's a form of Asian mahogany from a variety of sources that are now generally no longer exportable due to use. I guess alot of the Korean made insturments were sourced with local wood at the time, so yours may not be ash.

It was my first real bass, bought before I even touched one and knew how awful it balanced. Sounds like thunder, plays like poopie. Single handedly resulted in me putting music away in a closet for 15 years and finding a new hobby.
 
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I have a transistional BC Rich Platinum from the six month gap between one of the Ricos assuming control from Class Axe and before selling to Hanser. They claim it's solid "chesswood," but no one ever really says what the hell chesswood is. Near as I can tell it's a form of Asian mahogany from a variety of sources that are now generally no longer exportable due to use. I guess alot of the Korean made insturments were sourced with local wood at the time, so yours may not be ash.

It was my first real bass, bought before I even touched one and knew how awful it balanced. Sounds like thunder, plays like poopie. Single handedly resulted in me putting music away in a closet for 15 years and finding a new hobby.

I'm don't know much about wood, it just looked similar to a stripped Fury body I had so I assumed some type of ash. I hated the look of the Warlock but I bought the plywood one for $30 and the other was given to me, but it had a busted neck and no electronics. I played the $30 one for a few weeks, it is thunderous. Figured they'd be a fun one to refinish and no loss if I botched them.
 
Your Warlock has the double P? My Mockingbird does with a pair of white, BC Rich branded pickups, that sounds like nothing else. It's huge. I don't know if it's the wood, the mystery pups, or the double P but it's astounding. I actually bought a Fender Blacktop Jazz strictly for Fender playability and the double P sound, and it's just not the same at all.

I'm thinking about replacing the BTJ pups with something fancier. Possibly a Steve Harris sig in the neck and a quarter pounder in the bridge, a pair of GZRs, or just whatever DiMarzio Model P's I can find with the cream coloured covers because they'd probably be cheapest and easily found second hand.