Stoner/Doom Bassists Thread, Part 90: Maxed Out

[StayLow]

To jump off from the last discussion:
When I was growing up I, like most kids, had more time to really digest every new album I bought. Because a tape or CD (I was sort of post-vinyl) was $10-$15, which was a lot more in the late 80s and early 90s, I couldn't just go out and buy a new release every week. I would read the lyrics while listening, and knew them back and forth.
Does anyone take that sort of time with the lyrics of new releases any more? Does the digital and consumable nature of music today impact people reading the lyrics? Do you think that if people aren't reading the lyrics it doesn't push the writers to put a massive amount of originality into the lyrics?

I've finally given in and have become a big fan of Spotify. Still buy some physical when it's in front of me or a special packaging to order, but mostly either support the bands via direct online purchases whenever possible or of course at shows. I've I've downloaded material already, or prefer to stream it, I'll just hand them cash as I have more than enough black t-shirts.... yes, it's possible!

I *really* wish there were larger album cover graphics available with the downloads and streaming though. Someday, hopefully. Lyrics are sadly absent from the streaming too, on Spotify at least, but easily found online. On the plus side there's instant notice of new releases, tour dates nearby, and a fantastic algorigthm (again, Spotify) helping me to discover new artists I truly dig and subsequently support in dollars, and to avoid stuff I'd have unforunately spent money on in the past. Win/win/win.

 

[bassboysam]

To jump off from the last discussion:
When I was growing up I, like most kids, had more time to really digest every new album I bought. Because a tape or CD (I was sort of post-vinyl) was $10-$15, which was a lot more in the late 80s and early 90s, I couldn't just go out and buy a new release every week. I would read the lyrics while listening, and knew them back and forth.
Does anyone take that sort of time with the lyrics of new releases any more? Does the digital and consumable nature of music today impact people reading the lyrics? Do you think that if people aren't reading the lyrics it doesn't push the writers to put a massive amount of originality into the lyrics?

same. i spend a lot less time time listening to an album and digesting it. in fact i'm willing to best most albums in my digital collection i have listened to no more than once and even then probably did not get through the entire thing. most of my music is instrumental, lyrics are not that important to me. i can't really remember the last time i read the lyrics

 

[br1qbat]

I've finally given in and have become a big fan of Spotify. Still buy some physical when it's in front of me or a special packaging to order, but mostly either support the bands via direct online purchases whenever possible or of course at shows. I've I've downloaded material already, or prefer to stream it, I'll just hand them cash as I have more than enough black t-shirts.... yes, it's possible!

I *really* wish there were larger album cover graphics available with the downloads and streaming though. Someday, hopefully. Lyrics are sadly absent from the streaming too, on Spotify at least, but easily found online. On the plus side there's instant notice of new releases, tour dates nearby, and a fantastic algorigthm (again, Spotify) helping me to discover new artists I truly dig and subsequently support in dollars, and to avoid stuff I'd have unforunately spent money on in the past. Win/win/win.

Same here. I can listen to music all day at my job in an office. Spotify is ridiculously convenient. Though I do try to buy physical copies (vinyl) of bands/albums I dig. I prefer listening to music at home on vinyl, probably more for nostalgia than anything else. I like the whole 'ritual' of playing a record.

 

[QRanc]

I also prefer listening to vinyl. You have to make a deliberate choice, that involves a certain commitment of effort to listen. I think it puts you in a mind set to actually listen to the music. I will not argue that it sounds better, it will sound different. Unless you're willing to invest thousands upon thousands of dollars in your playback system, it probably won't outperform a modestly priced digital system. But it can still sound really, really good.

 

[hardtop]

I also prefer listening to vinyl. You have to make a deliberate choice, that involves a certain commitment of effort to listen. I think it puts you in a mind set to actually listen to the music. I will not argue that it sounds better,

I will. Through even a modest system, records should sound markedly better than streaming music and even most locally stored compressed files. This is generally true unless the record is severally worn or your stylus is garbage/in bad shape. I've a-b'd a song on Spotify through headphones and the same song on vinyl with the same phones, and its not even close.

Like you guys, I make it a point to listen to vinyl when Im home. Typically, whenever I am home, and listening to music, I'll put on a record. Though Spotify is great and convenient and I use it at work, vinyl is a superior listening experience both sonically and emotionally.

 

[lucas303]

I've a-b'd a song on Spotify through headphones and the same song on vinyl with the same phones, and its not even close.

Without getting into a huge debate, even assuming for the sake of argument that this is valid evidence that vinyl is better than Spotify, that doesn't say anything about "locally stored compressed files."

Purely in terms of fidelity, digital is demonstrably superior to vinyl. This is just a fact. Whether one person likes one better than the other, or whether one sounds better on their particular playback system, or whether a particular mastering makes for better sound, etc, is a different matter. But if we're talking about the ability of the medium to accurately preserve and transmit the music that was recorded, digital is the winner. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with preferring vinyl over digital, whatever the reason, of course. Grape Nuts might be objectively healthier than donuts, but that doesn't mean someone is required to prefer the taste of Grape Nuts.

 

[hardtop]

Without getting into a huge debate, even assuming for the sake of argument that this is valid evidence that vinyl is better than Spotify, that doesn't say anything about "locally stored compressed files."

Purely in terms of fidelity, digital is demonstrably superior to vinyl. This is just a fact. Whether one person likes one better than the other, or whether one sounds better on their particular playback system, or whether a particular mastering makes for better sound, etc, is a different matter. But if we're talking about the ability of the medium to accurately preserve and transmit the music that was recorded, digital is the winner. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with preferring vinyl over digital, whatever the reason, of course. Grape Nuts might be objectively healthier than donuts, but that doesn't mean someone is required to prefer the taste of Grape Nuts.

Compressed being the key word. It's digital but an inferior form of digital.

 

[lucas303]

Compressed being the key word. It's digital but an inferior form of digital.

Not to get too pedantic, but there are lossless forms of compression (flac, for example). I assume what you're talking about is lossy compression. Even then, there's solid evidence that better forms of lossy compression don't make audible changes to the music. But yeah some crappily-encoded mp3 is going to sound noticeably worse.

 

[QRanc]

Also, to reap the full benefit of streaming you need to run it through a quality DAC. Whatever is in your phone, computer, etc isn't going to do the file justice. The same as your TT, cartridge and preamp have a huge impact on vinyl playback. Either way, you can get amazing quality playback through either. But the investment for an equivalent in vinyl will be far higher.

 

[bassboysam]

i think mastering and production plays a bigger role than the medium assuming digital audio at 128kbs or more. for me i can't really hear a difference between lossless and 320kbs.

i still like vinyl but getting tired of the prices. eventually the bubble will burst and we can go back to $15-$20 (Canadian) records.

 

[hardtop]

Also, to reap the full benefit of streaming you need to run it through a quality DAC. Whatever is in your phone, computer, etc isn't going to do the file justice. The same as your TT, cartridge and preamp have a huge impact on vinyl playback. Either way, you can get amazing quality playback through either. But the investment for an equivalent in vinyl will be far higher.

Yeah, the only time I even attempt to listen to compressed streaming music is when I am on my phone or computer. Otherwise, I just listen to records.

Being from Winnipeg you might find this interesting:
Neil Young on the Travesty of MP3s | Open Culture

 

[hardtop]

i think mastering and production plays a bigger role than the medium assuming digital audio at 128kbs or more. for me i can't really hear a difference between lossless and 320kbs.

i still like vinyl but getting tired of the prices. eventually the bubble will burst and we can go back to $15-$20 (Canadian) records.

Absolutely true. We actually have a master specifically for vinyl for all our albums.

 

[kleinenenten]

i think mastering and production plays a bigger role than the medium assuming digital audio at 128kbs or more. for me i can't really hear a difference between lossless and 320kbs.

i still like vinyl but getting tired of the prices. eventually the bubble will burst and we can go back to $15-$20 (Canadian) records.

I would agree. I have a friend who is quite the audiophile and has spent thousands on stereo gear and only listens to vinyl or FLAC. I have subsequently listened to the same songs on my rather modest system with 128kbps mp3s, and can rarely tell the difference, and even when I can, it’s almost entirely inaudible. I wouldn’t notice unless I was actively trying to (which I was at the time). But not enough to warrant me spending the cash on any of that myself.

Not to mention the science of audio. I read an article years ago that essentially said that while FLAC and other lossless forms are demonstrably higher fidelity, that the range of human hearing simply can’t tell the difference between any of the higher quality forms of encoding. Essentially, the frequencies being preserved by those methods are out of the range of human hearing. Your dog may appreciate it, though.

That’s why I keep my bitrate fairly low - I can’t tell the difference. My stuff isn’t exactly “clean”, so with all the distortion inherent in my tunes I don’t see the point in making a pristine distorted sound, if that makes sense. And I can cram more songs onto my old iPod, which I actually still use.

 

[bassboysam]

Absolutely true. We actually have a master specifically for vinyl for all our albums.

as do we, along with a digital master.

That’s why I keep my bitrate fairly low - I can’t tell the difference. My stuff isn’t exactly “clean”, so with all the distortion inherent in my tunes I don’t see the point in making a pristine distorted sound, if that makes sense. And I can cram more songs onto my old iPod, which I actually still use.

yeah metal and most heavy rock are not really worth the effort. i listen to a lot of jazz and some classical and the difference is definitely much greater there. i have an OG pressing of Rain Dogs and the sound is incredible compared to the CD or mp3 versions.

my 5th Gen iPods will go to the grave with me. they do need new hardrives though.


this is my setup, modest by audiophile standards but I don't think i'd hear much of a difference upgrading from here. would not mind trying a higher end phono preamp but i can't justify it considering how relativelylittle I use it.

 

[hardtop]

as do we, along with a digital master.



yeah metal and most heavy rock are not really worth the effort. i listen to a lot of jazz and some classical and the difference is definitely much greater there. i have an OG pressing of Rain Dogs and the sound is incredible compared to the CD or mp3 versions.
this is my setup, modest by audiophile standards but I don't think i'd hear much of a difference upgrading from here. would not mind trying a higher end phono preamp though.

View attachment 3357033

holy sh!t, that's a nice rig. I'm sure you get some lovely sounds out of that. I'm using store bought sh!t.

 

[bassboysam]

holy sh!t, that's a nice rig. I'm sure you get some lovely sounds out of that. I'm using store bought sh!t.

thanks, about 10 years in the making. The Tannoys are the crown jewels, but i think my favorite piece of equiment is my 1 generation Grado Gold cart with an MCZ stylus. that made the biggest difference in sound. big fan of my Nagaoka carts too.

 

[Novarocker]

Without getting into a huge debate, even assuming for the sake of argument that this is valid evidence that vinyl is better than Spotify, that doesn't say anything about "locally stored compressed files."

Purely in terms of fidelity, digital is demonstrably superior to vinyl. This is just a fact. Whether one person likes one better than the other, or whether one sounds better on their particular playback system, or whether a particular mastering makes for better sound, etc, is a different matter. But if we're talking about the ability of the medium to accurately preserve and transmit the music that was recorded, digital is the winner. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with preferring vinyl over digital, whatever the reason, of course. Grape Nuts might be objectively healthier than donuts, but that doesn't mean someone is required to prefer the taste of Grape Nuts.

This is the argument I get into with audiophiles. Yes digital can have better fidelity, but fidelity is low on the list for me why vinyl is better. Sadly too many of those I debate with think that fidelity makes it a black and white debate...it does not. It's a qualitative argument.

i think mastering and production plays a bigger role than the medium assuming digital audio at 128kbs or more. for me i can't really hear a difference between lossless and 320kbs.

i still like vinyl but getting tired of the prices. eventually the bubble will burst and we can go back to $15-$20 (Canadian) records.

Completely agree. There's something about records, especially older ones that have more feel. Likely more background noise. On old records I have, it almost feels like I'm in the room they're playing in, love it. I wonder if besides production differences, if the prevalence of click tracks and over compression (loudness wars) contributes?

Also the limitations of mastering for vinyl and the crackle pop on worn records adds to the experience IMO. Echoing others, I think the ritual adds a lot to the experience. Hell I got a Bruno Mars record for my wife and I enjoy the hell out of the non singles on it. Listening to one whole side is such an experience vs just popping on Spotify, Pandora, or radio.

Yeah, the only time I even attempt to listen to compressed streaming music is when I am on my phone or computer. Otherwise, I just listen to records.

Being from Winnipeg you might find this interesting:
Neil Young on the Travesty of MP3s | Open Culture

Same here and I love his attempt to bring his alternative to mp3s to the market. I wish it took over...

 

[StayLow]

You guys are really tempting me to get back into vinyl! The costs and storage space though...

Biggest drawback for me with digital is it's a real buzz kill for listening parties. Once devices come out the vibe nose-dives... connecting said devices, scrolling for files, distractions of incoming messages, level imbalances between devices, no chance to hold/discuss the album/CD or read and discuss liner notes, no way to peruse and choose from the host's collection library. Even cassettes are preferable and far more social.

How do you all handle that?

 

[socialleper]

I wasn't trying to stir up the often discussed topic of digital vs analog. It is more about how we take the time to listen to that music. Cds and some digital formats come with the liner notes.
Last night I had the house to myself, so I grabbed my 24\96 digital copy of River of Nihil's Where Owl's Know My Name and Googled the lyrics. My Sennheiser headphones represent the wonderful production and brilliant musicianship very well. Reading the lyrics along with listening did keep me focused on the listening experience and kept my mind from wandering. It is a fairly long album, so it is hard to sit through an hour like that. I don't think I'd want to do that with a Sleep or Electric Wizard album where the lyrics aren't the focus.

 

[bassboysam]

with our last album we included lyrics with the digital bandcamp downloads. considering that it is an instrumental album, you would have thought that the many reviews that were posted would have mentioned it. i think only 1 maybe 2 even realized that there was a booklet with lyrics and additional artwork were included. one review said that the album would make for a great soundtrack to a story of some kind, which was exactly what we had done. point is no one really takes time to even look at what is incuded with the download much less sit down and immerse themselves.

then again maybe our album wasn't worth the time.