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Stoner/Doom Bassists Thread, Part 90: Maxed Out

Question to you guys who play a lot live. How do you approach the "wall of sound" tone with your band? That slow riffage that hit's you constantly in the chest in the audience? Think bands like Monolord, Conan, Primitive Man, Bongripper. I actually talked to Ron at one his gig and if I remember correctly they had some sort of low frequency crossover going on for the whole mix.
In Interference we pay a ton of attention to frequency slotting. I handle the lows and mid-mids, our guitar/vocals picks up where I leave off and into lower high mids, and the other guitarist takes it from there. I use massive power (1550w into a Barefaced 610), guit/vox dude plays through a GK bass head and 4 10’s (300w), and guit plays a Marshall half stack. Huge power where it counts (1850w of rhythm frequencies will initiate chest punching) and enough power for the frequency range that the human ear naturally picks up the best. Summary… no replacement for displacement and everyone in their sonic space.

If you’re on Instagram, check
out @interference_doom for a couple quick vids!
 
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A second thing. Do you (as a hive-mind), when learning new songs, try to get a functional chordal foundation of the song down pat before learning the busy fills and little runs first? It's a bit of a silly question, just one that's been in my melon for a bit. I play along to, say, a Who tune with all the little fussy bits Entwistle does, and lose my way in the tune trying to figure them out. So, as a result, a lot of stuff that has fussy bits ends up being way more garage rock than originally done.

always the structure first and then I tackle fills one at a time. I do the easy ones first and then woodshed the harder ones.
Congrats on the breakthrough in your hands. That’s huge.

I actually talked to Ron at one his gig and if I remember correctly they had some sort of low frequency crossover going on for the whole mix.

low end control is huge, and important for the front of house so you don’t turn into mush. Crossovers are good, but also think in terms of complementary eq. Not everyone should boost all their lows. A mixing engineer who knows what they’re doing is also huge.
 
Question to you guys who play a lot live. How do you approach the "wall of sound" tone with your band? That slow riffage that hit's you constantly in the chest in the audience? Think bands like Monolord, Conan, Primitive Man, Bongripper. I actually talked to Ron at one his gig and if I remember correctly they had some sort of low frequency crossover going on for the whole mix.

Would agree with @bobomatic on the importance of frequency slotting. Remember that everyone boosting or sitting in a certain frequency range does not equate to more power. You can get weird canceling/filtering if you have multiple guitars & bass and a kick drum all stepping into the same space. (Quick example: My band has a song where me and the guitarist start with a unison, fuzzy riff in similar, mid/low-mid territory. Then I go to a lower register and he goes to a higher register, and you get the immediate effect of things sounding huge in comparison to when we're reinforcing the same sonic space.)

Our band isn't wall of sound, but we play with a fair amount of dirt/distortion and it's very riff-based. So power is needed, especially in the 'big' sections. We're only a 3-piece, but it's still super important for me and the guitarist to workout our frequency 'Venn diagram' to ensure that everything is working together.

For example, I'm using an HPF to keep myself from overwhelming the kick-drum territory while still sounding full in the lows. Our guitarist plays a lot of baritone, which means he has to be mindful of keeping his lows in check to not step on my lows. He occupies a lot of midrange, but I have some extra gunk in my high-mids that helps me cut through and compliment what he's doing. Then he occupies the high end without overemphasizing the really high/harsh stuff, and that keeps him from getting into the weird 'cymbals eat guitars' territory.

There's no specific formula, but just using rehearsals to notice and work stuff out will definitely translate live and make you easier to mix (and easier to make sound good/big/clear) in a live setting.

Also, more bass is not always better. Sure, it's fun to have a wall of subby lows behind you, but it's hard to make that actually sound good/defined live. Pay attention to the bands you play with too, and try to identify the bands that sounds good versus the bands that sound like mush, are way too loud on stage, have terrible mixes, etc. Look at their rigs/EQ, listen to the space they're occupying, and try to figure out why you like their overall sound.

Edited to add: Check out some of the better sounding youtube vids of bongripper and monolord live. You're not hearing the bass in the mix because of the low end levels. They're using some mids/upper mids (and the accented harmonics distortion/fuzz adds) to give the bass definition and detail. Those two bassist also have a lot of attack audible in the mix. Last I saw, Ron is using an EGC bass and a darkglass solid state head. So he's definitely got some teeth in his signal.

Conan is a bit different, because they downtune to the depths of hell. The bass in a lot of their stuff is just a fuzzed out, swampy blanket that adds a huge pad of low end. It's way warmer with way less clank/attack in the mix. I always felt like the Conan bass is way more supportive of guitar compared to BR and Monolord utilizing bass for more lead/melodic sounds - at least in some songs.

Man...my post is long AF. Sorry.
 
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If you’re on Instagram, check
out @interference_doom for a couple quick vids!

Good stuff, man! Definitely hits like a truck.

@bobomatic @Grahams Groove @JES

Thanks a bunch, dudes! From your answers it seems it’s all about frequency slotting, headroom and low end control. I really need to get myself a HPF.

@Grahams Groove I gave a listen to the Bongripper live albums and there definitely isn’t a lot of audible bass in the mix. The guitars and the bass sound almost like one instrument. It's weird because when I think of Bongripper I think "bass-driven".

So, do you guys think this kind of wall of sound could be accomplished mid gig without major help from the sound engineer? Let’s say the band is mixed for more of a traditional fast and dynamic metal mix from the start but for one or two songs the band goes to town with hard hitting doom with some dimed (but somewhat frequency slotted) HM-2 pedals? Last gig I went to the audio engineer seemed to have a template mix for the bands that worked really well with the slow hard hitting bands but bands with faster riffs and more dynamics were quite mushy.
 
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So, do you guys think this kind of wall of sound could be accomplished mid gig without major help from the sound engineer? Let’s say the band is mixed for more of a traditional fast and dynamic metal mix from the start but for one or two songs the band goes to town with hard hitting doom with some dimed (but somewhat frequency slotted) HM-2 pedals? Last gig I went to the audio engineer seemed to have a template mix for the bands that worked really well with the slow hard hitting bands but bands with faster riffs and more dynamics were quite mushy.

1) Depends on the engineer and how they have you mixed. Talk to em before the show/during your check, and let them hear that gear shift to the “wall of sound”.

2) Yes to your question, assuming you’re just changing textures/sounds/slotting a bit. If the whole band is suddenly kicking up the volume significantly to achieve that sound, you’ll likely have issues with the overall mix.
 
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Would agree with @bobomatic on the importance of frequency slotting. Remember that everyone boosting or sitting in a certain frequency range does not equate to more power. You can get weird canceling/filtering if you have multiple guitars & bass and a kick drum all stepping into the same space. (Quick example: My band has a song where me and the guitarist start with a unison, fuzzy riff in similar, mid/low-mid territory. Then I go to a lower register and he goes to a higher register, and you get the immediate effect of things sounding huge in comparison to when we're reinforcing the same sonic space.)

Our band isn't wall of sound, but we play with a fair amount of dirt/distortion and it's very riff-based. So power is needed, especially in the 'big' sections. We're only a 3-piece, but it's still super important for me and the guitarist to workout our frequency 'Venn diagram' to ensure that everything is working together.

For example, I'm using an HPF to keep myself from overwhelming the kick-drum territory while still sounding full in the lows. Our guitarist plays a lot of baritone, which means he has to be mindful of keeping his lows in check to not step on my lows. He occupies a lot of midrange, but I have some extra gunk in my high-mids that helps me cut through and compliment what he's doing. Then he occupies the high end without overemphasizing the really high/harsh stuff, and that keeps him from getting into the weird 'cymbals eat guitars' territory.

There's no specific formula, but just using rehearsals to notice and work stuff out will definitely translate live and make you easier to mix (and easier to make sound good/big/clear) in a live setting.

Also, more bass is not always better. Sure, it's fun to have a wall of subby lows behind you, but it's hard to make that actually sound good/defined live. Pay attention to the bands you play with too, and try to identify the bands that sounds good versus the bands that sound like mush, are way too loud on stage, have terrible mixes, etc. Look at their rigs/EQ, listen to the space they're occupying, and try to figure out why you like their overall sound.

Edited to add: Check out some of the better sounding youtube vids of bongripper and monolord live. You're not hearing the bass in the mix because of the low end levels. They're using some mids/upper mids (and the accented harmonics distortion/fuzz adds) to give the bass definition and detail. Those two bassist also have a lot of attack audible in the mix. Last I saw, Ron is using an EGC bass and a darkglass solid state head. So he's definitely got some teeth in his signal.

Conan is a bit different, because they downtune to the depths of hell. The bass in a lot of their stuff is just a fuzzed out, swampy blanket that adds a huge pad of low end. It's way warmer with way less clank/attack in the mix. I always felt like the Conan bass is way more supportive of guitar compared to BR and Monolord utilizing bass for more lead/melodic sounds - at least in some songs.

Man...my post is long AF. Sorry.
I found Conan's live sound a bit disappointing when I saw them recently. Though they were in the USA with rented gear so ymmv. I thought they were a sonic swamp and it was hard to define much of what they were doing.

But yeah, to back up others, I think figuring out EQ and overall tones ahead of time is the key. Figure out where the guitars are going to live and what the bass needs to be doing. If you want defined low-end on a downtuned bass, thats where I cannot recommend enough having the low register be clean or less distorted/fuzzed out. And an effecient cab is a must. I honestly think cabs for bassists are more important than the amp sitting atop them.
 
I found Conan's live sound a bit disappointing when I saw them recently. Though they were in the USA with rented gear so ymmv. I thought they were a sonic swamp and it was hard to define much of what they were doing.

But yeah, to back up others, I think figuring out EQ and overall tones ahead of time is the key. Figure out where the guitars are going to live and what the bass needs to be doing. If you want defined low-end on a downtuned bass, thats where I cannot recommend enough having the low register be clean or less distorted/fuzzed out. And an effecient cab is a must. I honestly think cabs for bassists are more important than the amp sitting atop them.

Thanks, dude! I was going the muff route but maybe I'll just roll off some tone to give more room to the guitars.

I actually saw Conan live a few years ago with Bongripper and the sound was huge. They we're using the same PA as Bongripper and other big bands and what they did to the bass frequencies was crazy. It was bassy but defined. I had to go take a breather mid gig because it hit so hard.
 
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Was loud.
 
Thanks, dude! I was going the muff route but maybe I'll just roll off some tone to give more room to the guitars.

I actually saw Conan live a few years ago with Bongripper and the sound was huge. They we're using the same PA as Bongripper and other big bands and what they did to the bass frequencies was crazy. It was bassy but defined. I had to go take a breather mid gig because it hit so hard.
A clean blend on fuzz works great. Or biamping. Which is my answer for everything. Lol
 
Played along with Blue Oyster Cult's "Agents of Fortune" album last night. (By which I mean, I kind of felt my way through it, hitting the occasional correct note.) Although, I have to admit, I was pleasantly surprised by how quickly I could ID some notes/chord changes/riffs. I think my plan of just playing along with random albums daily is going to help me in ear training and tone/fret recognition. Also, I'm back to the pick. I've decided to embrace my inner Roger Glover and play like that. Until I change my mind. (Again.)

Also, "31" is a standard Rob Zombie blood flood of a movie. FYI.
 
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Chain:

Bass - Geezer wah - KORG Pitchblack -Old Blood splitter - Peper’s Pedals Dödsmaskin - Ernie Ball volume - amp.

Blue Loop - Fuzzrocious Rat King - EQD Data Corrupter.
Red Loop - EQD Rainbow Machine - H9.

Clean blend is the key. If you dial in a good foundation then can ho as wild as you like with other effects.
 
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Thanks for all the great gig n rig pics folks, been killer busy and been missing playing and shows like crazy!

Hope to get back into the swing of things real soon. Especially with a dinosaur jr, clutch and red fang show followed by boris and melvins in the near future!

Total agreement on the clean blend and hpf things to try as well as the finding sonic space for each voice. There are two things i always keep in mind. Am i going for two peak freqs (like an HM-2) or single (like a range master)? Both examples essentially stick you out in a mix immediately without necessarily being higher in volume.

One's Lows and highs/high mids, and one's just high mids/low highs. Cocked wah idea also stands out as another example. Find your freq(s) that you like, turn em up, then see how it is in the mix and turn down other freqs as needed to help pronounce the one's you chose and help give others space to work with.

I've been AWOL with kid hobbits and motorcycle hobbies. Record #5 is coming out soon, just have a couple of songs left to finish up, this one's gonna be really good.

I also bought a '60s Mosrite Ventures bass, fixed it up and it dooms, but I flipped back into purge mode so it's on the market. Too many other projects and too little time to F around.

Sames here, though not any of the instrument or recording projects have even left the ground or plan phase. Too many house projects, then my mower took a crap. Rebuilt carb and a bunch of other crap and it's still having trouble...gotta get my old enduro running, needs a new carb too lol. Somehow lost parts in all the moves its gone through.

Thanks for another awesome sauce record!