Stringing, Tuning, Intonation and Witnesses

[MVE]

I thank GOD everyday for stupid people.
If everyone in the world were as smart as me, I'd only be average.

 

[cazclocker]

@cazclocker,.. TI has a silk wrap between the steel core & windings.

jazz flat wound | Thomastik-Infeld Vienna

pacojas, thanks for the correction!

 

[cazclocker]

not unusual at all; a roundwound G often has a single layer of wraps on it while the others have two layers, and that can change the intonation behavior, as intonation offsets are influenced by flexibility vs. thickness. you can get that "zig-zag" between the single layered G and double-layered D, just like you get a zig-zag in the saddle pattern on a guitar between the last plain string and the first wound string.

normally it's the G slightly behind or maybe parallel with the D, and the rest staggering back by increasing amounts as they get thicker; if your tuner is steering you towards a weird pattern, chances are you haven't seated the string properly or you have a slightly "off" string.

don't do any of that last bit!

the 12th harmonic is pointless unless you or your tuner can't hear the open note, and the 5th-7th stuff is actually wrong by about 2 cents, as @Honch pointed out.

i know i'm in for a bad night of music as soon as i witness anybody on stage plucking 5th-7th harmonics to check their tuning Invalid Link Removed

now just to throw a further monkey wrench into the "expected saddle pattern" works, if you have taper-core strings they will intonate quite a bit forward of where you expect, i.e., shorter, as the string is way more flexible at the witness point and needs less compensation (thanks @Zooberwerx for shining the light on this phenomenon).

walterw, thanks for the help. Regarding the bridge saddle pattern, I used to notice a more regular "stair stepped" pattern when using round wounds. But since I switched to TI Jazz Flats I began seeing the "zigzag" pattern you refer to.

Regarding setting the intonation, I sure didn't realize the 5-7 fret thing was inherently off a few cents - that explains a few unpleasant tuning discrepancies! I noticed, however, that you seemed to discount the idea of including the 12th-fret harmonic in a proper intonation regimen. My Korg "cyclops" tuner picks up the open strings just fine...to be clear, is finding agreement between open string, fretted-12th and 12th fret harmonic considered good intonation practice?

 

[walterw]

...is finding agreement between open string, fretted-12th and 12th fret harmonic considered good intonation practice?

just how do you "find agreement" between the open string and its 12th fret harmonic? you literally cannot adjust one in relation to the other.

you can adjust the saddle as far forward or back as it will go, either the string is good and those two pitches "agree" or the string is bad and they do not.

 

[cazclocker]

just how do you "find agreement" between the open string and its 12th fret harmonic? you literally cannot adjust one in relation to the other.

you can adjust the saddle as far forward or back as it will go, either the string is good and those two pitches "agree" or the string is bad and they do not.

Okay, I see what you mean. So in the end, adjusting saddle length to make the open string agree with the note on the same string at the 12th fret must be the only adjustment needed. I did notice in your original reply you included the 12th-fret harmonic in your red-letter emphasis.

 

[walterw]

Okay, I see what you mean. So in the end, adjusting saddle length to make the open string agree with the note on the same string at the 12th fret must be the only adjustment needed. I did notice in your original reply you included the 12th-fret harmonic in your red-letter emphasis.

yep!

again, the idea is to not fool around with things you don't actually do while playing bass (various harmonics) and adjust for "real" notes, the open and fretted ones you actually use on gigs, hit the way you play them on gigs.

 

[Honch]

Another note on intonation, this is rare, but can occur:

If you're about to start intonation and then 12th fret harmonic isn't exactly the same on the tuner (+-0 cent) as the open string, don't even continue to get it right, because:

1. You haven't even started to fret yet, and the string is still off at the harmonic node.
2. The Magnetic String Pull from the pickups can cause this erratic behaviour of the string/tuner.

Change strings! The most likely is that the string's gauge is very uneven, and frets has started to make dents on the string, making it uneven. Then the harmonic 12th fret node may show 4-5 cents sharp, and the open string dead on 0+ cent. Or the other way around, considering which you tuned up to first.

The MSP (Magnetic String Pull). See if it's like that on ALL strings. Then it's possible you can turn down the pickups towards the body with a screwdriver, while tuning and intonating. This all above is before you even start to fret, so everything with action, relief, is out of consideration for now. The phenomenon described above can occur when you've boiled the strings too. Be wary of that.

Don't stretch! At least not like the w*nker in that video. Stretch with turning the tuners only.

 

[Honch]

And as everybody else has said too, which can't be stated enough: Only intonate to how YOU play, and no one else. No one else can intonate for you. Period. They don't know how hard or light you're pressing the frets. Learn it. It's easy. It's full of them on YT.

 

[megafiddle]

It's unfortunate that the 12th fret harmonic is recommended as a reference for setting intonation without almost never explaining why it is used. Especially since the harmonic itself has absolutely nothing to do with intonation.

The goal of the common intonation adjustment is to make the 12th fretted note agree in pitch with the open string. Period.

Nonetheless, the 12th fret harmonic is useful, because on a good string, it is always perfectly in tune with the open string *. The 12th fret harmonic is simply a substitute reference for the open string. So why use it at all?

Intonation adjustment predates electronic tuners. It was typically done by ear. The octave interval, open string to 12th fretted note, is not easy to hear accurately. The unison interval, 12th fret harmonic to 12th fretted note is much more easy to hear accurately. And since the 12th fret harmonic is always in tune with open string, making the 12th fret harmonic and 12th fretted note agree, will also make the open string and 12th fretted note agree.

With electronic tuners, it may be easier (better indications) to use the 12th fret harmonic and 12th fretted note, as they are similar in pitch. Sometimes the open string note works better. It all depends. Use what works.

There is another reason for using the harmonic, and is what I use:
Because the harmonic is always in tune with the open string, I don't need to retune the open after each saddle adjustment. I just keep comparing the harmonic to the 12th fret. The open string pitch, the 12th fret harmonic, and the 12th fretted note all change when when a saddle adjusment is made. But eventually the harmonic and 12th fretted note will match. And when they do, the open and 12th fretted note will match also. The open string pitch will now be a bit off, but when it is retuned to pitch, the 12th fretted note will track perfectly along with it.

* I have measured 12th fret harmonics up to 1.5 cent off from the open string note on a string considered good. This is ridiculously close at bass frequencies; it's inaudible in isolation, and even in direct comparison to another note, the beat note is many seconds long; in other words it's in tune.

-

 

[cazclocker]

yep!

again, the idea is to not fool around with things you don't actually do while playing bass (various harmonics) and adjust for "real" notes, the open and fretted ones you actually use on gigs, hit the way you play them on gigs.

.....EDIT.....The goal of the common intonation adjustment is to make the 12th fretted note agree in pitch with the open string. Period. .....EDIT.....

Thanks guys! Man, I'm still relatively new here on TB but I am so glad I joined. I've been playing bass for over 25 years now but I'm still learning a lot - in this particular case, I just learned some basics of "bass playing 101" that I somehow missed or maybe just glossed over. To me, it proves the value of networking and communication - including asking the occasional "dumb question"!!! LOL

 

[jthisdell]

Personally I am glad that this thread got beyond the string stretching part of the OP...

 

[cazclocker]

Personally I am glad that this thread got beyond the string stretching part of the OP...

Yeah, me too. The turd-nugget in the video was so egregiously wanky that his bass-sins kind of overwhelmed the original poster's intended talking points...at first, anyway!

 

[cazclocker]

OK, I have another discussion point, since I'm in the mood for learning stuff. My bass is a Squire Precision, and I notice that while I don't have ANY issues with my strings popping out of the nut or anything like that, the A string looks kind of funny on the peghead. That is to say, the angle of the string behind the nut, as it approaches the tuning peg. The E, D and G all have a good sharp angle at the nut to the tuning pegs, but the A somehow is only a few degrees from being parallel to the whole string from the bridge. I cut my strings all at the same length - the E string gets cut where the D-peg is (two pegs ahead), and so on. Obviously for the D & G strings I measure with my handy-dandy ruler. My tuning pegs are all made with a narrow "hourglass" waist so the windings naturally gather into the middle of the waist. So...I install all the strings with identical measuring and installation methods. But the A string just lays at a very slight angle compared to the E string!! It goes without saying that the D & G strings pass underneath a chrome tree to create a more oblique angle.
....SO..... (and again, this is actually nit-picking because I don't experience any issues with my strings) ...... shouldn't there be a tree for the A string? What if I cut the A string LONGER than two pegs...say, three pegs, to make the windings end up lower on the peg? If it makes any difference to the answer, I recently had the cheapo plastic nut replaced with a nice bone one, with the slots deliberately cut a bit larger than the string diameter so it won't grab.

 

[Honch]

No the A string makes a perfect just 14 degree shallow angle. You may do good of turning the tuners so the string is going from down the bottom of the tuner post towards the nut. If it doesn't rattle in the nut, keep it. The E-string's tuner is too close to the nut, so there's always "ample angle".

You could - for fun - make the following comparison of intonation on the first fret:

1. Compare in tuner the note fretted at first fret of the E-string. check on a tuner.
2. The more sharp angle behind the nut, the more sharp the F note will be. Even if open E-string is dead on in any tuner. It's like 3-4 cents sharp.
3. Now, loosen the string so it will wind the other way and leave the tuner post towards the nut, at the top, resultin in no angle or as little angle as possible.
4. It should not be so loose that you can't play tune an open E correctly. Do this.
5. Press down the first fret F again and check in a tuner. It's more dead on now isn't it?

Too sharp angle behind the nut can make the first fret on any string a tiny bit sharp. On bass this is basically a no-no, and no issue, since you rarely play chords at the first few frets anyway. On guitar it can be heard substantial difference, when say playing a regular E-major chord with the majord third on the g-string. G sharp is....too sharp.

 

[Honch]

It's unfortunate that the 12th fret harmonic is recommended as a reference for setting intonation without almost never explaining why it is used. Especially since the harmonic itself has absolutely nothing to do with intonation.

The goal of the common intonation adjustment is to make the 12th fretted note agree in pitch with the open string. Period.

Nonetheless, the 12th fret harmonic is useful, because on a good string, it is always perfectly in tune with the open string *. The 12th fret harmonic is simply a substitute reference for the open string. So why use it at all?

Yes I agree, but the harmonic will be a tell tale if the string is even and "clean". Finger gunk gunking up inside the windings can cause uneven gauge. Today, when the tuners are guessing which octave it is, it's basically a no issue anymore. The thing I use it for, is that it is a measure for exactly half the strings length (or really = the scale, the actual strings length is longer behind the nut and bridge). The twelfth fret should reside under half the string. If you should be really nitpicky about intonation is to tune to the 13th fret with a capo on the first fret. Then you have the "fret" comparison all along the string. However, a fretted note can be a bit more buzzier, and the sine-wavier harmonic on the 12th fret node will track better in any tuner. Me myself intonate a bit flat on the thicker strings, since one tends to press the slackest string a bit sharp. But that's me. I, for one, should never ever try to put across my idea of my intonation to someone else. Because it simply doesn't work. It works for me, but ... not for you.

But before you make any intonation, you can cross check open strings against the 12th fret harmonic. If it's the slighest off by 2-3 cents, it's totally futile to carry on with intonation. If it's just as dead on 0 cent, as the open string, then, proceed.

 

[Honch]

Oh, so now I got the video! Ahhh...now I get it! I was always wondering what they meant when they mentioned something about stretched tuning! Is that what's shown in da video?

[Ironic Sarcasm Alert]

 

[walterw]

My bass is a Squire Precision...The E, D and G all have a good sharp angle at the nut to the tuning pegs, but the A somehow is only a few degrees from being parallel to the whole string from the bridge.

yep, this is the problem with fender headstocks...

What if I cut the A string LONGER than two pegs...say, three pegs, to make the windings end up lower on the peg?

...and yep again, this is the solution!

the A on a fender traditionally needs to be cut well longer than the others so that the windings are sure to make it all the way down the post as far as they can go. (good on ya for divining out a bit of passed-down old-school fender bass lore on your own

)

 

[MVE]

Can anyone tell me if high action causes bad intonation or if that is just my imagination.
I have always assumed that the lower the action the better intonation as less pressure to push a note sharp.
Is this right or wrong?

 

[walterw]

Can anyone tell me if high action causes bad intonation or if that is just my imagination.
I have always assumed that the lower the action the better intonation as less pressure to push a note sharp.
Is this right or wrong?

you're right.

the higher the action the more the string gets stretched sharp to get down to the fret; you compensate by adjusting the saddles further back, but eventually you can't compensate anymore.

 

[Honch]

As WalterW said. Higher action kan make fret buzz disappear, and better tone, but there's a line. If it's too high - which can only be determined by how your frets are - the "take off" point from the frets is going to move back, and it jeopardizes tone and intonation at the other end. It's working in conjuction with neck relief too. There are luthiers out there who strive for have no neck relief at all, and make action as low as possible. Only then, the physical rules of intonation, and fret points will merge and come together. But, by and large, I think that's too nitpicking and anal rententive. I've also slowly discovered that higher action can make you rock the string - i e vibrato - much easier, along the string, giving you quite a few more cents slack area for intonation. I e it's easier to do "horizontal" vibrato so to speak, accidentally. Especially at the thicker strings... but... this is nitpicking too. You may only discover this DECADES down the road of playing.

- - - - -

This is a trick of my own I do when intonating any new instrument. Especially bass. The high G-string are taught and tight, and doesn't react that much to horisontal vibrato. I e you have to produce quite a lot of effort in making it waver the slightest in pitch. So I intonate that one +-0 cent (12th fret harmonic/open string). But going down to thick E, which has less tension and is floppier, if you press down any fret and move the finger along the string, i e producing a vibrato, it's much easier to knock it off by quite a few cents. So on those strings I tend to intonate - say - 3-4 cents FLAT at 12th fret harmonic/open string. When playing, if I hear something slightly flat from my side (if that happens) I just press a little bit more. But I say, 3-4 cents is at the limit for what a human can hear difference any way. Most people can't detect 3 cents off. However, playing chords on any guitar or similar you'll hear it, inside the chords, say if a major third should be 3 cent flat or 3 cents sharp. Of course, before I do that, string height and neck relief has to be done FIRST, before I make the plunge into intonation. And of course, fresh strings.