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Surviving a Pay-to-Play Environment (P2P)
- Thread starter Kragnorak
- Start date
jive1
Commercial User
With those 50 fans, you could probably find a place that would love to have that draw. I could think of places where those 50 fans would give the place an increase in clientele of 40-49.
madbass6
Inactive
- Jan 13, 2009
- 2,428
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- I do not give consent to use any of my photos ! please respect that. thank you.
Damm that really sucks dude ! it sounds like it's time to join the club! no worries nothing to be embarrased about most struggling Bass Player$ & musician$ alike are already members off it!
I know I am !
The gd news is there's always room for new members !
its the "Crapy reality" Day job club!
I know I am !
The gd news is there's always room for new members !
its the "Crapy reality" Day job club!
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jive1
Commercial User
If you have any type of following, work it. If you have any type of networking, work it. Rinse, lather, repeat.
The key is to create partnerships. And when I say partnerships, it can't be a one and done deal. That's a transaction, not a partnership..
- Create partnerships with venues that have slow nights that would love to have your meager draw. Work out an equitable deal that lets you perform without them losing money. But, have a plan for growth that improves the draw while maintaining financial viability or equity.
- Create partnerships with other bands where you will have crossover appeal with each other's fans. Share bills with them, and collaborate on events. Bands are always looking for work, and there's probably a bunch that would love to share a bill with you to increase their exposure and fan base.
If you have the scarcity mindset, you have to break out of it. These pay to play scammers rely on that. Once you have the scarcity mindset, you stop looking for creative options and go for desperate ones. Think outside of the box to find other options. But, the key to those other options is to have great material, period. The money maker for original bands are their songs, not their live performances. Without their songs, the Beatles would have been just another cover band.
As a cover band guy, I have the advantage of playing songs that have been played zillions of times with proven success. An original band doesn't have that advantage, and the gap is HUGE. Which means you have to have your songs out there, and you have to go beyond live performance to do it. Get your best material out there in every form of media and media outlet you can create and push to. IMO, that probably will get you more exposure than P2P. If anything catches on, it's pretty much a guarantee that you will get gigs that pay. A viral YouTube video, a hit on the local college radio station, theme song for an indie movie, write up in a music review, video game soundtrack, etc. will all help you land a paying gig and help your following.
I think one of the reasons why original bands have a hard time of it is because they are just so excited to get out there any perform live that they forget that it's their songs that ultimately determine their success or failure, whether it's at the local level or beyond. Sometimes it seems like bands write songs just to have enough material to play gigs, and because of that the whole package suffers. You have to have great songs first, and the rest will fall into place because those songs will determine your image, your following, the types of venues you play, the marketability of the band, etc..
The key is to create partnerships. And when I say partnerships, it can't be a one and done deal. That's a transaction, not a partnership..
- Create partnerships with venues that have slow nights that would love to have your meager draw. Work out an equitable deal that lets you perform without them losing money. But, have a plan for growth that improves the draw while maintaining financial viability or equity.
- Create partnerships with other bands where you will have crossover appeal with each other's fans. Share bills with them, and collaborate on events. Bands are always looking for work, and there's probably a bunch that would love to share a bill with you to increase their exposure and fan base.
If you have the scarcity mindset, you have to break out of it. These pay to play scammers rely on that. Once you have the scarcity mindset, you stop looking for creative options and go for desperate ones. Think outside of the box to find other options. But, the key to those other options is to have great material, period. The money maker for original bands are their songs, not their live performances. Without their songs, the Beatles would have been just another cover band.
As a cover band guy, I have the advantage of playing songs that have been played zillions of times with proven success. An original band doesn't have that advantage, and the gap is HUGE. Which means you have to have your songs out there, and you have to go beyond live performance to do it. Get your best material out there in every form of media and media outlet you can create and push to. IMO, that probably will get you more exposure than P2P. If anything catches on, it's pretty much a guarantee that you will get gigs that pay. A viral YouTube video, a hit on the local college radio station, theme song for an indie movie, write up in a music review, video game soundtrack, etc. will all help you land a paying gig and help your following.
I think one of the reasons why original bands have a hard time of it is because they are just so excited to get out there any perform live that they forget that it's their songs that ultimately determine their success or failure, whether it's at the local level or beyond. Sometimes it seems like bands write songs just to have enough material to play gigs, and because of that the whole package suffers. You have to have great songs first, and the rest will fall into place because those songs will determine your image, your following, the types of venues you play, the marketability of the band, etc..
I don't think you can make any statement on just the pay-to-play aspect alone without thinking about the societal norms where you live. I'm not entirely clear how things are in USA, and I also imagine that it must be different between different cities, but here are some experiences I've had in Singapore and Japan. It's complicated and there are a lot of factors coming together. Anyway, these are my personal opinions and perceptions and I might be entirely wrong.
Firstly, I stay in Singapore. I'm primarily a rock guy. I'm not familiar at all with the jazz scene. The bar top 40s cover band scene is doing pretty well, but there's lots of competition in the scene. Acoustic singer-songwriters too. However, when it comes to the average rock band...
I'd say we had a huge boom in popularity of rock bands a few years ago. Gig organisers quickly took advantage of that and introduced either large admin fees or ticket quotas. There was a pretty large backlash and it became unprofitable. But instead of musicians getting paid to play, we just instead had a pretty bad dearth of gigs. Right now, gigs are building back up without that pay to play thing, but I don't know how it'll go from here. Ticket sales for indie gigs can often be pretty bad, and there are extremely few venues...can't blame venues for wanting to guarantee payment. I could count the number of current available venues on my hands. Quite a few venues closed down in the past few years and only bars or big and well funded places survive.
I think this has something to do with the local audiences. They're very unwilling to pay to watch gigs. And tickets here are already really cheap. I'm talking like US$8-15 for a multi-band gig or album launch. But to be entirely honest, I don't blame them. Musicians from my country seem to have a reputation for not knowing how to market themselves or put together an interesting performance. They write good music, but don't do good performances. There are a lot of deep-set societal reasons for it, but that said, the originals bands that do well do have something special about their live show to set themselves apart.
Because venues just can't make money, you don't really have a thriving ecosystem. Acoustic acts are popular with F&b venues because it's low investment for them, and acoustic is hard to hate, but rock, especially originals, is a different story. And music-only venues need reasons to survive financially. I've got good hopes for the future of live music here though.
On the other hand, for years Japan seems to have operated on a ticket quota system. It's pretty harsh, bands have to sell about us$300 of tickets minimum for gigs. While tbh I think many gigs are underpopulated, the system thrives. Venues get paid, and indie musicians see it as publicity costs. I believe it also sets a bar for musicians too, they need to be sure they can either invest the money to get more fans, or be good enough to draw a large enough crowd. And this has results. The venues have really really good sound and lights. The gigs I did there at the best venues that my "unknown foreign band" could get had systems and sound crew that could easily rival the best venues back home. And the bands there have showmanship on a whole new level. Both the venues and bands need to ensure quality to survive. It's just business. Well I'm not saying that pay to play is the only reason for the quality. But I'm sure it contributes, and forms a cycle.
Now while I don't like having to pay, tbh I must admit that it's not a bad system. Music is an investment. You invest in your gear and rehearsal spaces, so why not performances as well? No one deserves a free lunch, it's a privilege, not a right. And if you're good, really good, then you can earn back some of it. The only good argument I can think of is that it makes it harder to break in (in that case, play open mics instead...) and it should be the promoter's job.
And furthermore, when the promoter/venue pays you a lump sum, it stands to reason that they'd be less likely to take on less profitable acts. To some extent, I see this system as working against niche or non mainstream acts. Perhaps in a society where a large part of the public is willing to pay to watch non mainstream acts, it might be viable for promoters to organise gigs with non mainstream bands, but otherwise, I don't think it'll work out. On the other hand, if you see the ticket quota or pay to play system as the musicians renting a nice venue, if the musicians are willing to accept some loss or smaller profit margins for playing non mainstream music, it could keep a non mainstream scene active. I might be missing something, but that's how it honestly feels like to me right now.
One more thing: both Singapore and Tokyo are extremely crowded places. There's no such thing as a "garage band" or "house party gig". I literally have never seen a single garage in my country before. You can't just organise a gig on your own as long as you have a PA...either way, you need to obtain a venue somehow. And I think this really changes the market dynamics a lot.
Ps- a friend tells me HK operates in much the same way as Japan, and I think Taiwan probably works this way too.
Firstly, I stay in Singapore. I'm primarily a rock guy. I'm not familiar at all with the jazz scene. The bar top 40s cover band scene is doing pretty well, but there's lots of competition in the scene. Acoustic singer-songwriters too. However, when it comes to the average rock band...
I'd say we had a huge boom in popularity of rock bands a few years ago. Gig organisers quickly took advantage of that and introduced either large admin fees or ticket quotas. There was a pretty large backlash and it became unprofitable. But instead of musicians getting paid to play, we just instead had a pretty bad dearth of gigs. Right now, gigs are building back up without that pay to play thing, but I don't know how it'll go from here. Ticket sales for indie gigs can often be pretty bad, and there are extremely few venues...can't blame venues for wanting to guarantee payment. I could count the number of current available venues on my hands. Quite a few venues closed down in the past few years and only bars or big and well funded places survive.
I think this has something to do with the local audiences. They're very unwilling to pay to watch gigs. And tickets here are already really cheap. I'm talking like US$8-15 for a multi-band gig or album launch. But to be entirely honest, I don't blame them. Musicians from my country seem to have a reputation for not knowing how to market themselves or put together an interesting performance. They write good music, but don't do good performances. There are a lot of deep-set societal reasons for it, but that said, the originals bands that do well do have something special about their live show to set themselves apart.
Because venues just can't make money, you don't really have a thriving ecosystem. Acoustic acts are popular with F&b venues because it's low investment for them, and acoustic is hard to hate, but rock, especially originals, is a different story. And music-only venues need reasons to survive financially. I've got good hopes for the future of live music here though.
On the other hand, for years Japan seems to have operated on a ticket quota system. It's pretty harsh, bands have to sell about us$300 of tickets minimum for gigs. While tbh I think many gigs are underpopulated, the system thrives. Venues get paid, and indie musicians see it as publicity costs. I believe it also sets a bar for musicians too, they need to be sure they can either invest the money to get more fans, or be good enough to draw a large enough crowd. And this has results. The venues have really really good sound and lights. The gigs I did there at the best venues that my "unknown foreign band" could get had systems and sound crew that could easily rival the best venues back home. And the bands there have showmanship on a whole new level. Both the venues and bands need to ensure quality to survive. It's just business. Well I'm not saying that pay to play is the only reason for the quality. But I'm sure it contributes, and forms a cycle.
Now while I don't like having to pay, tbh I must admit that it's not a bad system. Music is an investment. You invest in your gear and rehearsal spaces, so why not performances as well? No one deserves a free lunch, it's a privilege, not a right. And if you're good, really good, then you can earn back some of it. The only good argument I can think of is that it makes it harder to break in (in that case, play open mics instead...) and it should be the promoter's job.
And furthermore, when the promoter/venue pays you a lump sum, it stands to reason that they'd be less likely to take on less profitable acts. To some extent, I see this system as working against niche or non mainstream acts. Perhaps in a society where a large part of the public is willing to pay to watch non mainstream acts, it might be viable for promoters to organise gigs with non mainstream bands, but otherwise, I don't think it'll work out. On the other hand, if you see the ticket quota or pay to play system as the musicians renting a nice venue, if the musicians are willing to accept some loss or smaller profit margins for playing non mainstream music, it could keep a non mainstream scene active. I might be missing something, but that's how it honestly feels like to me right now.
One more thing: both Singapore and Tokyo are extremely crowded places. There's no such thing as a "garage band" or "house party gig". I literally have never seen a single garage in my country before. You can't just organise a gig on your own as long as you have a PA...either way, you need to obtain a venue somehow. And I think this really changes the market dynamics a lot.
Ps- a friend tells me HK operates in much the same way as Japan, and I think Taiwan probably works this way too.
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If you tl;dr-ed my long post, just think of it this way: p2p isn't bad in itself, it's the culture and scammers (both organizers and bands) that make it bad. Just think of it as rental costs for equipment and venue to put on a show, and decide if the price is worth it. P2p can both help or harm a scene.
I've played there a couple of times as a "hired gun" and got a set fee regardless of whatever the band took in...but I won't consider playing for "the door" there or anywhere else. I'm not gonna subsidize any proprietor and provide free entertainment for their establishment.
Why should you deserve a pay just because you spent years getting good at something. There are plenty of hobbies where you can be the best in the world and no one cares. Why should it be different with music?
If you craft is so good that it can make a garantee a profit then book a scene somewhere and profit instead of whining about bar owners. There are plenty of places that you can book for an evening for a fixed fee.
(Just trolling, but there is some truth to the above
)
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With original music, this is kinda how it goes. You need to be able to demonstrate that you can pull in fans who spend green at the venue. Then you'll be in a better negotiating position the next time you book there. If you can't pull in the fans, then you have to essentially rent the venue yourself.
I feel for you Kragnorak (bonus points for moniker). I'll never discourage someone from pursuing their dream. Unfortunately, you were born in the wrong decade, 30-40 years ago there were a lot more venues for original music. No smoking laws and stricter DWI enforcement (not that it's a bad thing) have had a negative impact on the bar business, the main place for live music. In my neighborhood in Philly for example, 20 years ago there were 15 bars that would have bands. Now there's one. So playing around has become harder for even established acts.
At the same time, technology has allowed literally, millions of bands to flood the internet. The odds aren't in your favor, and venue owners know it and will gladly take advantage of your dreams for profit. You should maybe go the cover route, with a few originals thrown in to build up a following to better leverage your position. Good luck.
At the same time, technology has allowed literally, millions of bands to flood the internet. The odds aren't in your favor, and venue owners know it and will gladly take advantage of your dreams for profit. You should maybe go the cover route, with a few originals thrown in to build up a following to better leverage your position. Good luck.
Ric5
Inactive
- Jan 29, 2008
- 29,772
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Actually you are good at communicating with written words ...
Selling is easy ... unless ... you are selling something that people don't want and don't need ...
Have you band learn a few good covers so then people will pay to hear your band ...
The biggest factor of all might have been when, at about the same time, states began to change their legal drinking age from 18 to 21.
My suggestion is after you have built a fan base absolutely essential in this playing environment, sell merchandise to help pay for the show a small investment like this can take the sting out of pay to play. Again with a nice sized fan base you can also start a fund me page to raise money anything that doesn't come out of your pockets is a win. You can share the bill with other acts and split the cost if your fan base isn't yet where it needs to be, you maybe able to steer some of their fans your way as well. Lastly and a lot of people cry about this one you'll be a sale out bla bla bla to raise money do what you are already doing, play music but covers and use that money to pay the pay to play bill.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Most people want to hear music they know. Just like people generally will order something they like at a restaurant, rather than order something totally unknown.
It's been a while since I've done much in originals, but I have seen bands (sometimes several together) rent a theater on a dark or slow night and put on their own show. Bypass the middleperson. Maybe even partner with a local bar - they get a free drink if they bring their ticket from your show - also gives you more publicity.
It's been a while since I've done much in originals, but I have seen bands (sometimes several together) rent a theater on a dark or slow night and put on their own show. Bypass the middleperson. Maybe even partner with a local bar - they get a free drink if they bring their ticket from your show - also gives you more publicity.
It doesn't answer the question, but this is why I have quit playing professionally.
I have largely dropped the saxophone (after 40 years); took up the double bass; started playing country, old-time, and bluegrass; and I am having a blast. I no longer stress out about getting to the gig on time when it's icing outside; no longer gnash my teeth when the drummer isn't cutting it; no longer skip out of work early missing a meeting, drive like he!! for 3 hours, then play the gig, get home at 3:00 am with a 7:00 work meeting the next morning, all for $75 or $100. I don't play with people I dislike; and it's looking like I may never again play either "Mustang Sally" or "In the Mood".
I have a steady day job so I have the luxury of doing this.
It's my opinion that the period of approx. 1920-1980, when it was possible for a significant number of people to make reasonable money playing live popular music, is an anomaly in human history, which existed for a number of reasons, and which may not re-occur.
Sorry to be Debbie Downer, but I just see an ever-increasing supply of musicians and an ever-decreasing demand for their services. And every year, the universities and music schools crank out an accelerating number of hot young players who can outplay most of us.
I have largely dropped the saxophone (after 40 years); took up the double bass; started playing country, old-time, and bluegrass; and I am having a blast. I no longer stress out about getting to the gig on time when it's icing outside; no longer gnash my teeth when the drummer isn't cutting it; no longer skip out of work early missing a meeting, drive like he!! for 3 hours, then play the gig, get home at 3:00 am with a 7:00 work meeting the next morning, all for $75 or $100. I don't play with people I dislike; and it's looking like I may never again play either "Mustang Sally" or "In the Mood".
I have a steady day job so I have the luxury of doing this.
It's my opinion that the period of approx. 1920-1980, when it was possible for a significant number of people to make reasonable money playing live popular music, is an anomaly in human history, which existed for a number of reasons, and which may not re-occur.
Sorry to be Debbie Downer, but I just see an ever-increasing supply of musicians and an ever-decreasing demand for their services. And every year, the universities and music schools crank out an accelerating number of hot young players who can outplay most of us.
If you don't already know, I believe that the first thing to understand is that you are a product in an ocean of products.
If your song writing isn't great then it doesn't matter how well you play it. It's just a shiny version of an average product. (Some will like it because they like to find something different because they believe that they are unique, but that's a different discussion; one for those that like to argue)
Learn to write great songs, start by listening to a lot of great music and writing a lot of bad songs. When you get to the point where your songs are great, then it will be easy to follow the good advise that the others have posted.
If you have clients/fans you have something venues want.
If your song writing isn't great then it doesn't matter how well you play it. It's just a shiny version of an average product. (Some will like it because they like to find something different because they believe that they are unique, but that's a different discussion; one for those that like to argue)
Learn to write great songs, start by listening to a lot of great music and writing a lot of bad songs. When you get to the point where your songs are great, then it will be easy to follow the good advise that the others have posted.
If you have clients/fans you have something venues want.
This whole thing is why I got out of playing original music. It doesn't make any sense unless you have a significant draw. For me, the material I'm playing doesn't matter so much as the audience response and a "good show" overall. Wanting to be creative and write your own stuff is great, and sometimes I miss that, but it is a TOTALLY different animal and different business than just being in a cover band. To successfully perform original music you have to generate a following, and that usually means a lot of s*** gigs and hours upon hours of pounding the pavement, touring, and practically giving away material.
I treat the originals vs. covers dichotomy as two COMPLETELY different business models that happen to use the same tools - people who play instruments.
I treat the originals vs. covers dichotomy as two COMPLETELY different business models that happen to use the same tools - people who play instruments.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
While some venues prey on young local musicians, remember, they are in business to turn a profit, not to pay you for your hobby to their detriment. If your music is unknown, and you have no draw, why SHOULD you get paid a guarantee? Cover one of those, and you will make $$$.
Covers are different. You are playing music people know.
Covers are different. You are playing music people know.
Surviving a Pay-to-Play Environment (P2P)
I just avoid it from the start.
I just avoid it from the start.
I've done the all originals gig for a long time so I know where you're coming from. One of the hardest things to face as band that plays only originals is that perhaps your music just doesn't hold much value, ours didn't, at least in the beginning. We thought we were the bomb but no one showed up to the shows we were playing. We never resorted to paying to play, but we never got paid. After a few years we matured and so did our music, it got better. Next thing we knew we had a following and we were selling CD's and merch, and occasionally we got paid to play.
So in the end you have to ask yourself a question: is your music of so little value that you have to pay someone else to allow you to play it?
If you're comfortable with the answer to that question, then you have your solution.
So in the end you have to ask yourself a question: is your music of so little value that you have to pay someone else to allow you to play it?
If you're comfortable with the answer to that question, then you have your solution.
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