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Surviving a Pay-to-Play Environment (P2P)
- Thread starter Kragnorak
- Start date
Creativity is overrated. I took my last shot at an original music band in 2011. There wasn't a P2P scene, but there might as well have been. If we took home $20 apiece we felt we'd been successful. My sense of things now is that the best situation is to be a college kid in a college town, where you can build a following among your fellow students. I'm a little too old for that now. 
As far as the scene changing, none other than the late Mr. Bowie made this prediction back in 2002:
''The absolute transformation of everything that we ever thought about music will take place within 10 years, and nothing is going to be able to stop it. I see absolutely no point in pretending that it's not going to happen. I'm fully confident that copyright, for instance, will no longer exist in 10 years, and authorship and intellectual property is in for such a bashing.''
As far as the scene changing, none other than the late Mr. Bowie made this prediction back in 2002:
''The absolute transformation of everything that we ever thought about music will take place within 10 years, and nothing is going to be able to stop it. I see absolutely no point in pretending that it's not going to happen. I'm fully confident that copyright, for instance, will no longer exist in 10 years, and authorship and intellectual property is in for such a bashing.''
If your entertainment doesnt put meat in the seats and sell drinks it isn't worth paying for.
I went to the Whisky-a-Go-Go over and over last year to see shows by bands I really wanted to see (Fates Warning, Insomnium, Loudness, Marty Friedman, Prong), all the while knowing it was a P2P venue. My New Year's Resolution this year is to stop going to shows at P2P venues, regardless of how badly I want to see them.
I have also started emailing or messaging the bands social media accounts telling them that I am interested in seeing them but will not attend shows at P2P venues. When I have gotten responses at all, it's been "We don't control where we get booked" and/or "There are no venues in your area suitable for our draw that are not P2P".
Pay For Everything. That's the new American thing. We call it "The Sharing Economy." Never let it be said that we don't have a sense of humor about this.
Every market is unique. Do the people that stick around for a few hours drink as much, or are they just taking up tables and seats form the regulars who pound down pitcher after pitcher. (No agenda here. I don't drink, but I do enjoy live music. Most bands that play here have to pass around a jar.)
jive1
Commercial User
Opening for a big band could also mean that you have the first slot among 4 opening acts, which means you are paying to put on your resume that you opened up for "xxx" while not getting the exposure for opening up for "xxx".
Truth in these statements, although I disagree with the last statement in general. Every generation has maybe different means of gaining skills. Nowadays we can learn fantastic techniques by playing along with internet videos, and there are many players with technical abilities. At the same time, the days of clubs being open for jamming and after-hours jam sessions were gone long before my generation, so we don't have the kind of petri dish that players like Charlie Parker came out of. Learning how to play with other musicians is a big part of musicality.
This is especially true when there's a promoter just trying to make a quick buck. By the way, what is your band name? I'll keep an eye out for your shows
jive1
Commercial User
Based on the headlining acts that I see at P2P venues, I wonder what the P2P clubs would do if they had to pay the headliner's guarantee by selling their own tickets and selling booze to only their fans...
I wouldn't be surprised if some of those headliners really weren't making the club money either.
I also wouldn't be surprised that in some cases that they may find without the local bands, the headliner has no draw.
I can confirm this is true in some cases. I have been to shows where people started leaving a few minutes into the headliner's set.
I also have seen promoters lose money by hiring a headliner that did not draw; I'm sure this is how they hit on the scheme in the first place of getting local bands to basically pay for the headliner.
There is a pay to play venue in my area that I absolutely hate for various reasons, but let me just relay one of the situations they had with a big named band.
August Burns Red was playing there. A few years ago ABR was big news in the metal world. This venue booked 8 opening bands (each with 20 minute sets) and made them sell 50 tickets at 20 dollars each to be on this show. let it also be noted that maximum occupancy of this club as posted by the sign on the wall is 220 people.
$8,000
Then they charged 5 dollars to park, and if you had more than three people in your car they charged you 8 dollars to park. Read that a few times and let it sink in.
Then they did their standard "2 dollars per ticket for every ticket over the minimum goes to the band" so to put a $100 dollar bill in the band fund you would have to hand this venue $1900 dollars.
And people will seriously ask me why I absolutely hate this venue and those associated with it.
Now this was an atypical show so let me outline for you a local bands only show:
7 bands, 30 ticket minimum, 10 dollars a ticket, 25 minute set (which they include set up and sound check in), 2 dollars per ticket for every ticket sold above the minimum (although I've heard plenty of stories of them not honoring this.) the door guy is a volunteer, the sound guy is a volunteer. they are raking in 2100 minimum on a local band show and not shelling out a dime. they charge touring bands to rent the place in order to play there. I could go on and on.
when anyone supports pay to play this is what you end up with. and I sincerely hope anyone that supports pay to play quits music like yesterday.
I've heard/read about this whole P2P thing for a long time, but never thought id be involved in it except for festivals like Metalfest in NJ or Milwaukee,but thats playing for at least a few thousand people and all the underground labels so I have no issue with that scenario, for small clubs I do take issue!
There's one promoter here that does the ticket sales thing to open for national acts, some have tried convincing me its not "true" P2P as you don't *have* to sell all of your tickets, but in my gut I just get a bad vibe about the whole thing! I miss the days of just passing out flyers and using word of mouth to get a decent draw, then eventually getting those opening slots for bigger acts...even the promoters themselves were outside of concerts/gigs passing out flyers around 15-10 years ago, I miss those days!!
But now even in my old stomping grounds there's a guy who does this P2P scam, I understand *why* they do it but it also can lead to the band just paying for the tickets outright and not really drawing a crowd!!
Dont mean to be pessimistic, but this whole P2P is relatively new to me and has got me questioning how worth it playing original's live is anymore, I'm kinda at the point where I just wanna do recordings and not gig out anymore!! I don't expect to make any money playing original music(I never made a dime when thats all I did), but I least wanna break even, I don't think that's too unreasonable...
Its not like there are record labels in Hawaii, the other guys in my group are younger though so their priorities are a little different, I told the BL I *refuse* to go sell tickets and he's fine with that, just on principle I am opposed though!! Maybe I'm doomed to just play covers for eternity?
There's one promoter here that does the ticket sales thing to open for national acts, some have tried convincing me its not "true" P2P as you don't *have* to sell all of your tickets, but in my gut I just get a bad vibe about the whole thing! I miss the days of just passing out flyers and using word of mouth to get a decent draw, then eventually getting those opening slots for bigger acts...even the promoters themselves were outside of concerts/gigs passing out flyers around 15-10 years ago, I miss those days!!
But now even in my old stomping grounds there's a guy who does this P2P scam, I understand *why* they do it but it also can lead to the band just paying for the tickets outright and not really drawing a crowd!!
Dont mean to be pessimistic, but this whole P2P is relatively new to me and has got me questioning how worth it playing original's live is anymore, I'm kinda at the point where I just wanna do recordings and not gig out anymore!! I don't expect to make any money playing original music(I never made a dime when thats all I did), but I least wanna break even, I don't think that's too unreasonable...
Its not like there are record labels in Hawaii, the other guys in my group are younger though so their priorities are a little different, I told the BL I *refuse* to go sell tickets and he's fine with that, just on principle I am opposed though!! Maybe I'm doomed to just play covers for eternity?
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buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Part of the reason I do covers for the most part - I like gigging.
Everybody has to remember, you are in it for the music - it's your hobby. The owner is in it for one reason - that's how he pays his mortgage. If you don't have a draw, and your music isn't known, why should you expect to get paid?
Everybody has to remember, you are in it for the music - it's your hobby. The owner is in it for one reason - that's how he pays his mortgage. If you don't have a draw, and your music isn't known, why should you expect to get paid?
