Those promoters sound especially scummy. No way would i want to be involved with that place. And no way would i be involved in selling tickets for a bunch of locals. They are bilking local bands.
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Surviving a Pay-to-Play Environment (P2P)
- Thread starter Kragnorak
- Start date
First of all, grats on the show. That is a hell of an opening gig.
I find your story interesting because I would think at that level, if you are opening for a international act like that, the promoter or venue wouldn't expect you to pay.
That is an insane amount of tickets! Sunset Strip clubs usually don't ask for more than 50 tix for a headlining slot on a weekend. That's pretty nuts. Add on top of that the fact there are 5 other bands competing for the slots. That's a hell of scam the promoter has going. I've played half-@$$ed festivals where they did this; basically funneled the money up to the "headliner" from the opening local acts, but no where near that many tickets.
I want to get a better idea of where you are at.
Has your band toured outside of your state before?
Do you have a CD or tracks on bandcamp for sale?
Do you have any videos on YouTube?
Here's why this matters-
If you are an act just at the beginning of your careers, this could be a great opportunity, but if you don't have the social media presence for people to latch on to after seeing you, then your money and performance are going to fall on deaf ears. If you are local-ish band that tours around to other cities on your own dime, this would be a great way to get your name out to a bigger audience, UNLESS you are already very well known in the area you are playing. If you are already a nationally known act that tours semi-regularly, it really sucks that you have to dump that much money.
How P2P can work for you-
Sometimes you have to invest a little. Playing little dive bars around your home town ain't gonna cut it. You can put a few hundred dollars into a music video, a recording, or putting yourself in front of an internationally known act that is doing pretty well for themselves right now. You can think of it as paying for advertising. Its a gamble; everything we do is.
My band plays a World Famous club about once a year that is P2P. The first time we ate a few tickets but the experience was awesome. The 2nd time, after a lot of tweaking of the band, we sold all of our tickets, and blew the doors of the place. In my humble opinion, we showed up the headliner; like bad. We are planning a third show with bands we picked and now we are the headliner. We aren't getting paid by the club, but now we have a solid enough fan base to cover our costs.
In the world of YouTube hobbyists, the P2P model allows them to scratch something off their bucket list. If I was in High School and could have afforded to play a famous club I would have crapped my pants. If I'm a bunch of guys that want to say they've done it, I don't have a problem with that since it keeps the doors open and you always need openers.
How P2P works against you-
If you aren't ready for it, and can't bring in a crowd, you are wasting your money. A big famous stage is cool, but it will eat you alive if you aren't careful. The patrons of venues like that aren't there to listen to you wank. This isn't your local bar. You better have something to show for yourself or you are going to have a lot of angry eyes looking at you.
It perpetuates a vicious cycle. Thankfully few Hollywood clubs are P2P anymore. There are a handful of big names that do it, but like I said, they are synonymous with the music scene world wide. Tourists go to them just to say they saw a show there. Those clubs can do what they want, and if you don't want to play there, they are OK with that. The ones that do pay local acts will barely give you enough to cover your parking and gas, but that is still netter than not getting that money and having pay for that stuff anyway.
If you play originals, aren't an nationally known act, are in a big city, and play anything heavier than coffee house muzak, you've either played for free or paid to play. Anyone that tells you differently is fudging a detail, or remembering the "good old days" of many, many decades past. The music industry (if you can call it that) is a lot like Uber; even though you do all the work, put miles on your car, and pay for your gas, Uber insists that they are the focal point. At this point labels are leeches that use their connections to advertise your band and do nothing else. Music has been commoditized and the artists left to fend for themselves. The party, in short, is over for everyone not in the 0.1% of pop acts. This is the new normal. Your 9-5 is now the financier of your music.
I agree that you don't even want to think about p2p unless you literally have everything together and are just seeking exposure.
Have we toured? No. The band name Ixion Lux has belonged to the singer since he was in grade school but this iteration of the band is only a couple of years old. There are a couple of tracks on cdbaby and the like for sale but no official videos.
I appreciate your perspective that Sunset Strip clubs usually ask for 50 tix sold because we're nervous that we'll 'only' have 100 sold. There's that whole element of 'the band that sells the least gets shamed and goes on first' that I mentioned.
One reason I find the Presale model frustrating is that my band in particular is not great on draw, but we always do our real job which is to enhance whatever show we're on and get people hyped. So I'm confident that we'll destroy on stage; even though we're heavier than what a Queensryche crowd might expect there are melodic parts and good songwriting that is ready for primetime.
Whisky, Viper Room, Troubadour, Roxy... what's left in Hollywood that's not P2P?
Your friend asks you to help a brotha out by purchasing a ticket and attending his show. You reply, "Get outta here scab, you're playing to feed massa and I can't support that." Your friend sells less tickets and looks bad in the capitalist environment he has chosen to join.
In this case, it only "hurts" the headliner, since I have been buying tickets directly from either the venue or the headliner.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
If I could sell that many tickets, I would be trying to book my own gigs at a small theater, with another couple of bands - be your own headliner.
First of all, those scenarios you described are horrible - I feel your anger at the scale of greed!
But I don't know that boycott is the right solution. The live scene just has a few less people in it and nobody is winning. I certainly understand prioritizing and supporting gigs that are NOT p2p! That's why my goal is to find, create and encourage alternatives to the system.
But the system is so prevalent that I feel that boycotting would require taking my ball and going home. I got a fortune cookie today: A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not why ships are built. I would be safe if I played music just in my bedroom, or if I only played covers, but I don't feel that's the best thing to do.
I understand all the above. I understand there are scammers.
But the reality of the situation is that there are bands who simply aren't qualified to play these venues. Can't fill seats? Can't sell the bar? Then why should the venue cater to you?
I don't apply for a job that I'm clearly not qualified for - so why would my no-name band expect to play (insert venue here) for free? Entitlement is a dangerous mindset.
But the reality of the situation is that there are bands who simply aren't qualified to play these venues. Can't fill seats? Can't sell the bar? Then why should the venue cater to you?
I don't apply for a job that I'm clearly not qualified for - so why would my no-name band expect to play (insert venue here) for free? Entitlement is a dangerous mindset.
Ric5
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- Jan 29, 2008
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Thanks, I consider myself good enough with words to write lyrics and forum posts and stuff. Speaking to actual humans is another story!
Learn to not care about what other people think about you and the shyness and fear will go away.
Ric5
Inactive
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You forgot option number three: hire a DJ. Compared to a group of local bar bands, a good DJ costs the same (or less), may have a better draw, and will probably keep people dancing and drinking longer.
I don't know about all that. The "real value" of a commodity, like a music CD, is a function of (1) how many people want it and (2) how much they're willing to pay for it. How hard you worked on it and how much you spent to make it doesn't contribute to it's "real value." If he can't sell his CDs for $5 at his own show, then that's a pretty good indication of what they're actually "worth" on the market.
In my experience, not that many albums hold up for 20 years or more. I generally buy merchandise at concerts to support local bands, but let's be honest...it's kind of charity. I can't think of too many local bands whose self-produced CDs I'm likely to be listening to 20 years down the road.
Check out the band in my sig. That was us. We made our own rules, we never paid to play. We turned down more paying gigs than we played. It's doable but you have to stick to your guns. Just don't settle.
Interested, but totally uneducated.
The way that I feel about the situation is that no one should ever pay to play. Seems like if I want a good show I do it myself. And if I can't make it work that's because I'm not trying hard enough. Businesses fail. No big deal.
When I think about it too if one of my buddies were to say, "yo come out to this place $8 and there will be sweat" I'm going to head out because I'm only human and it's nice to get lost in a groove (or whatever it is you do). Plus if I like it then that's cool. New music that I have an attachment to is becoming more rare. I guess I'm a big believer in the show. The show must be awesome. The show must blow your mind. People need to be into it. The crowd needs to be into it. Most importantly the band needs to be ultra into it.
And the factors that affect that are: how good is it and how familiar am I with the music and scene.
I think it also helps to be a complete person. With a good attitude and persona with a hint of crazy and razor sharp brains. People look to musicians for cool, which never goes out of style.
The way that I feel about the situation is that no one should ever pay to play. Seems like if I want a good show I do it myself. And if I can't make it work that's because I'm not trying hard enough. Businesses fail. No big deal.
When I think about it too if one of my buddies were to say, "yo come out to this place $8 and there will be sweat" I'm going to head out because I'm only human and it's nice to get lost in a groove (or whatever it is you do). Plus if I like it then that's cool. New music that I have an attachment to is becoming more rare. I guess I'm a big believer in the show. The show must be awesome. The show must blow your mind. People need to be into it. The crowd needs to be into it. Most importantly the band needs to be ultra into it.
And the factors that affect that are: how good is it and how familiar am I with the music and scene.
I think it also helps to be a complete person. With a good attitude and persona with a hint of crazy and razor sharp brains. People look to musicians for cool, which never goes out of style.
I agree that there must be more options than either P2P, already be outrageously famous, or go home. You would think that in the world of original music, relying on old and outdated models for publishing and/or playing live music would be discouraged by now. Original implies creativity, novelty, etc... Yet, bands continue to play at bars.
Why are bars and clubs still considered the primary places for live music? As long as bands think they are, then they will continue to pay to play. Metal bands have it the hardest, I think. Not a lot of places can support metal. Punk maybe. But not metal. But I digress. The point is that maybe traditional music venues are not thriving like they once were, making it even harder for bands to get good paying gigs for original music. This may be market driven to a large extent. But nowhere in that equation is it absolutely certain that bands can't play at non-traditional venues or events, instead of bars or clubs.
I don't even like bars in general, much less seedy, violent, testosterone-fueled ones. But bands have always played in bars. So that's how it is. And who are we to mess with time-honored traditions, thus undermining the very fabric of society! We're artists and musicians. Heaven forbid we break from convention or anything.
Several musicians have mentioned renting venues, putting on their own show, etc... I would like to hear more about this. I know it's not a new thing, but it is rare not to rely on venues, events/promoters, etc... to host the gigs. Apart from parties and bbqs (our personal fav), how/where are original bands putting on their own gigs? And if not totally DIY, what types of situations/events are original bands getting paid gigs at, that are not bars, clubs, or promoted festivals?
Good points too. No one said this ever had to be done a certain way. I'm sure that most of us would be very happy just to have enthusiastic fans to play to and expand from. I sense that the minds who were destined to be successful are going to have no problem navigating the market as artist-entrepreneurs.
Also I think if I were to become more successful I'd use my social leverage and connections to set me up with some kind of other means to make some money as well. Sort of naturally fall into it. Just have to think about what people need and how I can give it to them. I care less about saying I am a pro musician and more about getting the crowd pumped at the songs that I write and play.
The Viper Room isn't P2P.
Loaded wasn't, but now they are closing.
I think HOB wasn't, but they were also very picky about who they would let play.
There used to be more, but they are all getting shut down.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
In my town, the town hall has a theater (about 250 seats). Lots of small cities and larger towns have them. Find out what it costs to rent them on a slow night, and what requirements there might be for workers, insurance, whatever. Especially if several bands get together, figure out how to put together a PA that will cover the hall, what you are using for backline. You do all the work yourself. Not a bar, so no alcohol, but this way, you are the promoter.
