Surviving a Pay-to-Play Environment (P2P)

[jive1]

So it's better to boycott the venue and hurt the band??

Absolutely. Here's a question that's rarely asked....
After all the work your band has done to help out the headliner, what does the headliner do for you? In most cases absolutely nothing, not even a handshake or a quick listen to your band.

Take a look at the headliners at most P2P places. Most of those acts are on their way down, not up. The time where they had national significance has long past, and when they did, it was probably in a niche market anyway. Some of these bands haven't written any new material in over a decade and are riding on the recognition of their one-hit-wonder. Some of these acts have more name than game, but name recognition can go along way. Thus people will want to say they opened for them, even if it means shelling out some bucks to do it.

You have 1-10 local bands hustling their @$$3$ off to sell tickets to fund the headliner's guaranteed $2-10,000 while the locals get nothing or negative. The guarantee for the headliner that evening could amount to the total profit of each band's entire existence combined. If the headliner and venue are so great, then why do they need the local band to sell tickets? The headliner probably already has a website where you can buy a ticket, and they should have a greater reach than the local bands do. They should have way more likes on Facebook, more album sales, etc. With all that being the case, why put the burden on the local band to draw?

Because, the reality is that these headliners often need the local bands for the same reason that the locals pay money to open for them. The headliner needs exposure too, and they also want to expand their fan base. Chances are that the act's newest album isn't getting much play either, or the band is a new iteration that only has 1 or 2 original core members. The band may not have written any new material in ages and/or they have pretty much disappeared from any type of airwave.

Local bands should not discount their value to national acts. There's no doubt in my mind that the resurgence of acts like Journey and Bon Jovi had to do with their songs being cover band standards. There's no doubt in my mind that the resurgence of some acts out of the ashes, or move up the ladder are due to the following they developed via the fans of local acts that opened for them.

P2P has the elements of an abusive relationship. The abuser makes the victim feel worthless, and that the abuser is the only one that can really take care of them. In spite of all the abuse, there is a random silver lining once in a while to keep the victim roped in for more abuse, and the cycle continues. But the reality is that the abuser needs the victim more than he/she lets on, because without a victim, they have absolutely no power. Unfortunately in the music business, there is an overabundance of eager victims.

 

[Stdjazz4]

If someone said "sell 50 $20.00 tickets you can play here and keep half" I'd do it.

If they said "you get $2/per" I would not.

Are things as complicated as we make them??

 

[Charlzm]

The Viper Room isn't P2P.
Loaded wasn't, but now they are closing.
I think HOB wasn't, but they were also very picky about who they would let play.
There used to be more, but they are all getting shut down.

That's why I didn't include Loaded or HoB.
I played Viper twice. It would have been three times but the first time they wanted me to sell tickets (P2P). Granted, this was 6 years ago. They may have changed?

 

[Kragnorak]

Absolutely. Here's a question that's rarely asked....
After all the work your band has done to help out the headliner, what does the headliner do for you? In most cases absolutely nothing, not even a handshake or a quick listen to your band.

I like-a dis guy! This post reminds me:

My worst P2P experience ever was the most scammy business model of all: the battle of the bands. That is when a bunch of bands sell tickets over the course of a few rounds (shows) for the dubious chance to win a prize and the promoter runs to the bank laughing. When I first joined my band, we entered one of these because the promoter made it sound like the prize was to play on That Metal Show and that sounded worth the risk to my bandmates.

Even without a huge draw, my estimate is that we pulled in a total of $1,000 for the production company without seeing a red cent. But a few things changed along the way. First it turned out that the prize was not to be on TV but to play on a live version of That Metal Show. Then our band was killing in the voting so all of a sudden the rules changed so that there would be three winners (one of the winners were part of or friends with the production company if I recall). Then they decided that there were so many good bands that they could use the non-winners as well - some of them got shows I would've preferred to the 'grand prize'! With so many bands on the bill we ended up going on last with a shortened set at a show where our fans had paid $25 a ticket and a bunch of them left by the time we went on. The final punchline is that the metal show fellows also left by then and it turned out were not even aware that their show had been used as bait in a scam!

I think the only positive was that a kind fellow from Mr. Big stuck around and complimented us and that's always nice hearing from a guy that's worked with Billy

 

[jive1]

Why are bars and clubs still considered the primary places for live music? As long as bands think they are, then they will continue to pay to play. Metal bands have it the hardest, I think. Not a lot of places can support metal. Punk maybe. But not metal. But I digress. The point is that maybe traditional music venues are not thriving like they once were, making it even harder for bands to get good paying gigs for original music. This may be market driven to a large extent. But nowhere in that equation is it absolutely certain that bands can't play at non-traditional venues or events, instead of bars or clubs.

I don't even like bars in general, much less seedy, violent, testosterone-fueled ones. But bands have always played in bars. So that's how it is. And who are we to mess with time-honored traditions, thus undermining the very fabric of society! We're artists and musicians. Heaven forbid we break from convention or anything.

Preach brother! I don't do bars much as a band leader anymore. I came to a realization that I got into music to play music, not generate draw. That's why I do weddings. I play the best I can, and the client is happy regardless of how many people show up or how much is in the till at closing. There's lots of complaints about how live music venues are disappearing, that bars around here don't pay much, people don't go out as much anymore, etc.. If that's the case, why am I courting a declining bar and nightclub market when there's a 1.2 billion dollar wedding industry in the DC area? If the bars don't have the budget to pay $400, why am I courting them when there are folks having private parties where the ice sculpture cost more than a grand? If there's no-one at bars, then why am I going there for exposure instead of the local farmer's market that's packed every Saturday morning? If the local music venue is charging me to have a merch table and taking a cut of the sales, why am I going there instead of the local business that will not only let me perform but display my CD for sale after the performance for free? But to realize any of this, musicians have to break out of the scarcity mindset. In the end, it only opens you up to abuse.

One of the things that abusers like to use to keep their victims engaged is to make them think that the abuser is the only option they have. The reality is that there are many fish in the sea. You just have to swim to find them, and sometimes it's following a new current instead of swimming against it.

 

[DaDrew2112]

One of the things that abusers like to use to keep their victims engaged is to make them think that the abuser is the only option they have. The reality is that there are many fish in the sea. You just have to swim to find them, and sometimes it's following a new current instead of swimming against it.

Scarcity affects all areas of your life too. The realization of abundance is profound and paradigm shifting. It suddenly becomes you have the power to make your destiny rather than a lottery of sorts.

If you want something reliable build it yourself.

 

[Charlzm]

...That's why I do weddings... there's a 1.2 billion dollar wedding industry in the DC area... folks having private parties where the ice sculpture cost more than a grand... the local farmer's market that's packed every Saturday morning? ...local business that will not only let me perform but display my CD for sale after the performance for free?

Can't see the OP's original metal band doing well in those "alternative" venues, but I see your point.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think my band are going to do an album-release show (when it's ready for release) and it will definitely be a thing we set up ourselves at a non-traditional venue. Probably get another one or two bands in a similar genre to play before us. Maybe we can serve beer, maybe not. But the point is that we will put on this show, charge enough to cover expenses and do it our way. To hell with the P2P scene.

Who knows; if it goes well enough, maybe we can start doing it semi-regularly.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Check the places where the local theater groups perform. Usually fairly small places, and often have down nights.

 

[Kragnorak]

Can't see the OP's original metal band doing well in those "alternative" venues, but I see your point.

Yes, that is what the jazz trio is for!

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think my band are going to do an album-release show (when it's ready for release) and it will definitely be a thing we set up ourselves at a non-traditional venue. Probably get another one or two bands in a similar genre to play before us. Maybe we can serve beer, maybe not. But the point is that we will put on this show, charge enough to cover expenses and do it our way. To hell with the P2P scene.

Who knows; if it goes well enough, maybe we can start doing it semi-regularly.

That sounds great, and good luck to you! I've had success in the past renting out a VFW hall.

Luckily one of us lives in a farm area, so we've been able to have a couple parties and show (with a touring national act) where my bandmate was the host. We're hoping to have a big show there this year with a classic thrash band - the biggest risk would be getting shut down by cops.

 

[DwaynieAD]

Here's an interesting aside that I tell to the bands my friends are in. In the situation I outlined earlier they would need to sell 80 tickets to put 100 dollars in the band fund. I always tell them, if you can sell 80 ten dollar tickets you could rent a fire hall, a pa, and pay two bands besides your own and still come out above that 100 dollars. Just food for thought.

 

[Nic.]

Thanks for your perspective! This paragraph describes exactly the metal scene in my area. I like the music of the bands, but even I have to admit that the performances are 'samey', so there are bands that get radio play every week on college stations that still don't draw more than a handful of people. My band in particular tries to make shows more interesting by changing up the set list more than most, which means we spend extra time writing and learning quality songs. I doubt that means we have the type of 'schtick' that would help a band thrive in that Japanese market you described.

One thing that I'd describe it as is that in the market there, writing good songs is a basic requirement. So to stand out, you need to do more in addition to writing good songs. That said, I think to them, having a good live show is more important than having good studio recordings.

Anyway I'd like to add an amendment to my post: I'm mainly talking about music-only venues or venues where music is the main focus when I'm supporting the pay-to-play model. If you're paying to bring in customers to a primarily f&b establishment that changes things.

 

[socialleper]

That's why I didn't include Loaded or HoB.
I played Viper twice. It would have been three times but the first time they wanted me to sell tickets (P2P). Granted, this was 6 years ago. They may have changed?

When I played there last month it was "free" because we didn't bring in enough people to get paid. It was a Thursday night though. Weekends might be different.

 

[Bass Viking]

Then they charged 5 dollars to park, and if you had more than three people in your car they charged you 8 dollars to park. Read that a few times and let it sink in.

Scumbags!!! That's highway robbery! Or parking lot robbery...

 

[DwaynieAD]

Scumbags!!! That's highway robbery! Or parking lot robbery...

I've been tempted to post some of the emails they've sent the band over the years. Itd be good for a laugh, but I don't.

 

[ImNotJoel]

Internet is a great way gain a following and you can even show clubs and bars your bands following on the website. Local followers or not it inclines then to believe you're good.

 

[whatizitman]

Can't see the OP's original metal band doing well in those "alternative" venues, but I see your point.

Actually, after I read jive1's post, I got this picture of a wedding metal band in my head. I think it could work. Seriously. Probably have to use electronic drums to keep volume down. OTOH, you could use paper cutouts of Marshall/mesa stacks for, uh, effect. Lead singer wears a priest's collar, or bloody wedding dress, or whatever. OMG I'm so gonna do this. People get married by Elvis. Certainly some bride somewhere would love a campy wedding metal band.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Remember, and big wedding reception (especially where you expect to get paid like a wedding band) are for, and generally paid by, the family of the bride.

Just saying - worth a shot, and you might get one or two, but I can't see building such an empire...

 

[jive1]

Actually, after I read jive1's post, I got this picture of a wedding metal band in my head. I think it could work. Seriously. Probably have to use electronic drums to keep volume down. OTOH, you could use paper cutouts of Marshall/mesa stacks for, uh, effect. Lead singer wears a priest's collar, or bloody wedding dress, or whatever. OMG I'm so gonna do this. People get married by Elvis. Certainly some bride somewhere would love a campy wedding metal band.

My belief is that the trend will be towards more non-traditional wedding bands. I've never had the Hokey Pokey, Chicken Dance, Electric Slide, etc requested for any of the weddings we do. However, we have played Metallica, Rancid, Ramones, Reel Big Fish, AC/DC, etc. at our weddings. I'm sure there's some couples out there that would love to have a Metal band at their wedding. Guys like me who grew up on Thrash now have kids that are getting married, and it's only a matter of time until we're the grandpas at the wedding. Metal may become more appropriate over time, who knows?

 

[whatizitman]

My belief is that the trend will be towards more non-traditional wedding bands. I've never had the Hokey Pokey, Chicken Dance, Electric Slide, etc requested for any of the weddings we do. However, we have played Metallica, Rancid, Ramones, Reel Big Fish, AC/DC, etc. at our weddings. I'm sure there's some couples out there that would love to have a Metal band at their wedding. Guys like me who grew up on Thrash now have kids that are getting married, and it's only a matter of time until we're the grandpas at the wedding. Metal may become more appropriate over time, who knows?

Well, it clearly is considered more appropriate. Or at least less inappropriate. When was the last time the media blamed heavy metal for teen suicides? 25+ years now? It's certainly no longer dangerous. It can be as campy and cliché as any other pop/rock genre, and arguably has been for a while. I'm not surprised you get hard rock/metal and punk requests at all.

Maybe the hardcore/death/cookie monster thing might be a stretch. But I must say that I find the death metal thing...campy to begin with. Please no offense to any TBers who like death metal, but that's kinda how I see it. I think a death metal wedding could work with the right crowd, would be absolutely hilarious.

I think the only thing dangerous about metal nowadays is the venues. Which leads us back to the OP. So yeah, metal wedding bands. Should I go ahead and make a TB club now? Or should I actually form a band first? Decisions, decisions.

EDIT: and it absolutely would have to be uber metally. No glam. At least not hair band glam. 70s blood flair is ok.

 

[Kragnorak]

People get married by Elvis. Certainly some bride somewhere would love a campy wedding metal band.

This is correct. Weddingocalypse.