SWR Silverado Special 212 Combo Replacement Speakers

[agedhorse]

SWR speakers...meh, the cones roll...I always do a mondter upgrage when reconing them! I'm still using the SWR Super redhead I had customized at Neil's Speaker repair in Colma, CA. He used the same magnet and frame, but totally gave it the stiffer cone, better spider, and the surrounds to give it a MUCH better bass response and excursion. Go for that!

So, it's an essentially different and unrelated driver except for the metalwork.

I absolutely would not recommend this approach, even though YOU had "success" with it.

 

[Wasnex]

SWR was not an OEM (original equipment manufacturer, but Eminence is an OEM! Like many (americans), it seems you do not understand what OEM is. Example:
BMW builds and sells cars, but they do not manufacture the steering rack and spark plugs. ZF manufactures the rack, which is sold only vis BMW, as a genuine BMW part. Bosch (for instance) makes spark plugs for BMW, with BMW logo, supplied exclusively to BMW dealers. They might also sell a technically identical plug, but with Bosch logo, in a Bosch package. These are OEM.
Link Removed

Thanks. I actually do know what OEM mean, but admit I used the term incorrectly .

However the intent of what said is still accurate: SWR is no longer around so the OEM (Eminence) that made the SWR drivers is unlikely to provide support in the form of exact replacement drivers or recone kits. Normally Eminence only provides this sort of support to and through the company who originally contracted the design.

Technically I believe SWR/Fender owns the design, so Eminence is likely to be legally limited from providing it to anyone else without permission. I am actually surprised Eminence even released T/S data as that would also be proprietary. But maybe the design is old enough that it is no longer protected, or maybe Fender has released the info.

I believe there are a few exception where group buys for OEM drivers and recone kits have been made third party, but this is rare. Group buys are necessary because enough of the product has to be bought in order to justify the cost of setup and production. I would be surprised if Eminence would work a group buy for an OEM driver without coordination with the company the driver was originally designed for.

 

[AlexanderB]

"Perhaps the native language difference accounts for your miusunderstanding of the post, but Wasnex was referring to SWR as the original equipment manufacturer of the product and Eminence can not support SWR's product even though they may have manufactured a component through their OEM program.

OEM is used in different ways depending on the context of how it's applied. Eminence is the OEM supplier to SWR, but SWR (or actually Fender and it's various contract manufacturers) is/was the original equipment manufacturer of the SWR product. I have to deal with this in context all the time."

There is NO misunderstanding on my part, I assure you, and find it slightly rude that you imply so, given the attention I typically pay to my use of English - at least compared to how the language is used by many american TB members...
I have linked to some examples of OEM meaning what I say. Since there is a clear distinction between "Genuine" (or "Stock") designs vs "OEM", when using the concept I consider standard, why then muddy the waters by supporting an alternative (opposite!) and less common use of the expression? Also, if you say SWR is an OEM, what would that make Eminence? I find no commonly used and consistent terminology to describe this "reverse" implementation.
What You Should Know About Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs)
What Does OEM Mean?
What is OEM (original equipment manufacturer)? - Definition from WhatIs.com
OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) Definition
OEM - Wiktionary
What Is an OEM product? What Does OEM Mean? Why Buy OEM?

 

[Wasnex]

No, they are/were not, at least if we discuss their bass amps. OEM supply products (sub parts) used in assemblies sold by someother brand.

From Wiki:
"An original equipment manufacturer (OEM) is a company that produces parts and equipment that may be marketed by another manufacturer."

Anyways, good luck!

Is this really the hill you want to die on my friend? Technically I think you are correct, but this is off topic and really unhelpful to the conversation. Pretty sure everyone understood what I meant even though technically I used OEM incorrectly.

People often use words informally in a way that makes perfect sense, but is not technically 100% correct. I would be very surprised if Swedes do not take certain liberties with their native language as well.

FYI, your slur towards Americans violates rule #4: Terms of Service and Rules | TalkBass.com

Most importantly: Keep in mind where you are. This is TalkBass and if you want to critique or grade writing and language, please log off and go somewhere where you will be wanted and appreciated.

 

[chadds]

Ask Agedhorse which driver would be appropriate.

 

[AlexanderB]

Is this really the hill you want to die on my friend? Technically I think you are correct, but this is off topic and really unhelpful to the conversation. Pretty sure everyone understood what I meant even though technically I used OEM incorrectly.

People often use words informally in a way that makes perfect sense, but is not technically 100% correct. I would be very surprised if Swedes do not take certain liberties with their native language as well.

FYI, your slur towards Americans violates rule #4: Terms of Service and Rules | TalkBass.com

Most importantly: Keep in mind where you are. This is TalkBass and if you want to critique or grade writing and language, please log off and go somewhere where you will be wanted and appreciated.

I have not intended to offend you or your very fine writing, and I hope you will not take it like that! However, in the specific case, this "informal" USE of "OEM" means the exact opposite of the idea I consistently see. I felt that was reason to bring attention to it, regardless who posted it.

 

[agedhorse]

Eminence is a supplier, vendor, contract manufacturer. They can also be an OEM manufacturer, OEM supplier and they also buy parts and finished assemblies from other OEM manufacturers.

Fender was the actual manufacturer of SWR products, so in this case Fender and some of its subsidiaries are also OEM manufacturers as well as buying from other OEMs.

Each use has its meaning in context.

 

[AlexanderB]

Actually, my Swedish brother, SWR is an OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer), just not on the component level or the OEM of the speakers... but I still get your point on the useage of the term.

If you (like me) are in Sweden, price levels are different from US. RCF, Beyma, Ciare, Celestion etc are better value here than in US, especially second hand. They might be lower performance than current Eminence models, while still being better than the stock drivers shipped in the SWR, when it was new. Especially the stock Xmax is shorter than optimal for bass guitar.

 

[Omega Monkey]

This is an unsubstantiated wild guess, but I would bet that a pair of the GK NEO 12s would work pretty well in that combo, and probably shave, 10-20+ pounds off the overall weight. You could estimate the internal volume of the combo as well as the GK NEO 212 to see if they're similar. Then if the tuning is close-ish, you would likely be in business. Those are 300w rated drivers which sound amazing in their native cabs (which are at least vaguely similar with a high crossed over horn tweeter), and I think they run about $130 or so each (ie from Full Compass or probably other places that sell replacement parts). Order 2 of the 16 ohm version (used in the 212 and 412) and I feel like your chances are better than not it would result in a really nice sounding combo. You just may want to take it easy on the volume and low end EQ until you get a feel for what the combo can do (and not do) with the new drivers.

 

[Wasnex]

I have not intended to offend you or your very fine writing, and I hope you will not take it like that! However, in the specific case, this "informal" USE of "OEM" means the exact opposite of the idea I consistently see. I felt that was reason to bring attention to it, regardless who posted it.

I can only speak for myself in that I am more irritated than offended. I came to this thread to read and discuss the OPs topic, not debate proper usage of the term OEM. Somehow I have wasted several hours being side tracked with the need to explain something that is really off topic and unecessary to clarify what I meant.

Most Americans don't have a background in business or manufacturing, so it's not unusual for them to interpret the term OEM literally instead of using it as a third party that supplies original equipment parts and sub assemblies to another company that assembles them into ready-for-market end items. In other words SWR meets the informal definition of OEM as I used it, but not the proper textbook definition you are focused on. Keep in mind we are not using the Queen's English here; rather we are using colloquial American, so it's okay to if we don't write everything perfectly as long as people don't get confused.

Hypothetical: How would you feel if I came onto a Swedish "TalkBass" type website and corrected your use of colloquial Swedish, when everyone in the thread, including myself, understood exactly what you wrote?

This is TalkBass and not a lexicology or language class. It would have been appropriate and appreciated for you to offer a correction if the post that started this mess created confusion, but I don't see any evidence that it did. So it appears you may have responded due to a personal pet peeve, which is not really a very good reason.

It probably would have been best if you would have just let this one go.

Have a nice day .

 

[D Rogue]

This is an unsubstantiated wild guess, but I would bet that a pair of the GK NEO 12s would work pretty well in that combo, and probably shave, 10-20+ pounds off the overall weight. You could estimate the internal volume of the combo as well as the GK NEO 212 to see if they're similar. Then if the tuning is close-ish, you would likely be in business. Those are 300w rated drivers which sound amazing in their native cabs (which are at least vaguely similar with a high crossed over horn tweeter), and I think they run about $130 or so each (ie from Full Compass or probably other places that sell replacement parts). Order 2 of the 16 ohm version (used in the 212 and 412) and I feel like your chances are better than not it would result in a really nice sounding combo. You just may want to take it easy on the volume and low end EQ until you get a feel for what the combo can do (and not do) with the new drivers.

Those are probably fine speakers, but that adds a whole new twist to my search. I haven't seen anyone else mention putting Gallien-Krueger speakers in an SWR cab, but the cabinets aren't too off on dimensions. Do they even manufacture their own speakers, or are they made by someone like Eminence, as while I found them on Parts Express, I couldn't find much info on them. I may continue down my Eminence path, but thanks for the reply and suggestion!

 

[wave rider]

Speakers made in Stockton.

 

[D Rogue]

Perhaps the native language difference accounts for your miusunderstanding of the post, but Wasnex was referring to SWR as the original equipment manufacturer of the product and Eminence can not support SWR's product even though they may have manufactured a component through their OEM program.

OEM is used in different ways depending on the context of how it's applied. Eminence is the OEM supplier to SWR, but SWR (or actually Fender and it's various contract manufacturers) is/was the original equipment manufacturer of the SWR product. I have to deal with this in context all the time.


Eminence data backs up my recollections exactly. It's essentially a Beta version driver which could be (at that time anyway) be built with either 2" or 2.5" VC's depending on the metalwork.

Because of the low Xmax, I think a Beta would be a substantial improvement though an adjustment to the box tuning MIGHT be necessary. I only have one of what I think was n almost exact copy. Does yours have an accordion or M-roll surround? the M-roll would have been the later version.

Man, you guys are teaching me a lot! I had to look up speaker anatomy to answer you question, but am pretty sure it is an accordion surround. I did find some markings on the inside of the cone, which were: 541289-1, and below it was 69 98, whatever those numbers mean. Maybe that is info on a recone kit?

So now that I am understanding a little more about this, and comparing the fs and Xmax numbers, that Beta-12A-2 looks like a better bass speaker than what the T/S parameters Eminence sent me (not that it makes it better for this specific cabinet), and they're only $75.00 each! My speaker has an fs of 53.32 hz, while the Beta-12A-2 is 47 hz, and Xmax is 1.6 mm on mine and 4.4 mm on the Beta. My only concerned is the 2" voice coil on the Beta, while mine is 2.5". I don't know enough to know what I prefer 3" over 2.5", but maybe it's a misguided bigger is better. The Kappa Pro-12A looks real good too, with a fs of 37 hz and Xmax of 4.8 mm, but is twice the price of the Beta. It does have a 3" coil, twice the power handling, but is slightly (0.9 dB) less efficient. The Delta Pro-12A looks good to, but the fs seems kind of high at 51 hz, but nice XMAX at 4.6 Xmax, and I really like the 99.2 db sensitivity, but for $20 more the Kappa Pro seems like a better speaker. Man, do I roll the bones and get the cheap Beta-12A-2, or for twice the meny get the Kappa Pro... or something else? Gonna go compare more T/S numbers.

Thanks again for your thoughtful and knowledgeable posts! I appreciate it!

 

[D Rogue]

Speakers made in Stockton.

What speakers are made in Stockton? Do they come with the world famous Nate Diaz Stockton Slap?

 

[wave rider]

What speakers are made in Stockton? Do they come with the world famous Nate Diaz Stockton Slap?

GK speakers.

 

[D Rogue]

Since you guys have been so helpful, I have one other question for you regarding how the speakers are wired. When I was opening her up to look at the chassis (gain pot was scratchy, so I shot it with a little contact cleaner) the red and black wires from the two 12" drivers had the connectors come off of the terminal strip (maybe they were loose and the bad connection caused the speaker to blow). Here is the terminal strip:

The lug on the far left on the bottom row is for the black wire coming from the horn's crossover. The next lug, with the light blue wire is for the white wire from the horn's crossover. That I know, as I took a picture of it. So my question for you is regarding the red and black wires from the 12" drivers. They were connected to the lug on the far right of the bottom row, and also the lug 3rd from the right... or at least I assume they were, since they're the only lugs with wires soldered to them. My question is, since the wires soldered to the terminal strip aren't red and black, does the black speaker lead go the the farthest right lug with the black wire soldered to it, and the red speaker lead goes on the lug with the brown wire (3rd from right on the bottom row)? What do you think? It's a 50/50 thing, so if I wire it wrong the first time there's only one other way to wire it. I know how to check speaker polarity with a 9v battery, but this is on the amp side. I'd sure hate to damage the speakers... once I figure out which ones I'm going to get. Thanks!

 

[Wasnex]

Since you guys have been so helpful, I have one other question for you regarding how the speakers are wired. When I was opening her up to look at the chassis (gain pot was scratchy, so I shot it with a little contact cleaner) the red and black wires from the two 12" drivers had the connectors come off of the terminal strip (maybe they were loose and the bad connection caused the speaker to blow). Here is the terminal strip:
View attachment 3977963
The lug on the far left on the bottom row is for the black wire coming from the horn's crossover. The next lug, with the light blue wire is for the white wire from the horn's crossover. That I know, as I took a picture of it. So my question for you is regarding the red and black wires from the 12" drivers. They were connected to the lug on the far right of the bottom row, and also the lug 3rd from the right... or at least I assume they were, since they're the only lugs with wires soldered to them. My question is, since the wires soldered to the terminal strip aren't red and black, does the black speaker lead go the the farthest right lug with the black wire soldered to it, and the red speaker lead goes on the lug with the brown wire (3rd from right on the bottom row)? What do you think? It's a 50/50 thing, so if I wire it wrong the first time there's only one other way to wire it. I know how to check speaker polarity with a 9v battery, but this is on the amp side. I'd sure hate to damage the speakers... once I figure out which ones I'm going to get. Thanks!

Usually this type of cab does not have a true 2-way crossover; rather it only has an HPF to protect the tweeter. The woofers are usually connected to input jacks. Use a multi-meter to confirm continuity between the input jack terminals and the terminal block, and if what I said holds true wire the woofers accordingly + to + and - to -. Keep in mind this is general statement and may not be specific to your Silverado.

See the attached document as an example and note the tweeter is connected in reverse polarity.

Ultimately, try it both ways and use whichever sounds best.

Here is the source of the schematic: SWR Cabinet And Crossover Schematics

Also here is what the crossover (HPF) looks like for the Super Redhead combo for comparison.

The Super Redhead schematic came from: SWR Amp Schematics

 

[agedhorse]

Voice coil diameter only indicates the size of the VC. Larger is not necessarily better and in the case of your amp, you do not need the added power handling.

Either the Beta or Delta are fine, one may work better without retuning your cabinet. There is no benefit to the Kappa in your case, and in fact some disadvantages imo.

Much of the difference between an aftermarket driver and the OEM driver will be in the mid voicing.

 

[D Rogue]

Usually this type of cab does not have a true 2-way crossover; rather it only has an HPF to protect the tweeter. The woofers are usually connected to input jacks. Use a multi-meter to confirm continuity between the input jack terminals and the terminal block, and if what I said holds true wire the woofers accordingly + to + and - to -. Keep in mind this is general statement and may not be specific to your Silverado.

See the attached document as an example and note the tweeter is connected in reverse polarity.

Ultimately, try it both ways and use whichever sounds best.

Here is the source of the schematic: SWR Cabinet And Crossover Schematics

Also here is what the crossover (HPF) looks like for the Super Redhead combo for comparison.
View attachment 3978052



The Super Redhead schematic came from: SWR Amp Schematics

Yes, the horn is wired to the crossover, and then the 2 wires from the crossover are connected to the terminal board. The woofers connect directly to the terminal strip. I wired the tweeter exactly how it was, so that should be fine. if the wires soldered to the terminal strip were red and black then I'd just match the wires, but the black and brown wires threw me a curveball. I had thought about tracing the wire in the chassis and connected to the terminal strip, so I'll give it a more thorough look and will throw the meter on it. Thanks!

 

[D Rogue]

Voice coil diameter only indicates the size of the VC. Larger is not necessarily better and in the case of your amp, you do not need the added power handling.

Either the Beta or Delta are fine, one may work better without retuning your cabinet. There is no benefit to the Kappa in your case, and in fact some disadvantages imo.

Much of the difference between an aftermarket driver and the OEM driver will be in the mid voicing.

Thanks, that's a big help!