Thanks for your feedback! So while some say a recone kit may not be available for this speaker, you think your guy at Neil's can work some magic? While I'm about an hour and a half away, I drive through Colma often.
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SWR Silverado Special 212 Combo Replacement Speakers
- Thread starter D Rogue
- Start date
@agedhorse if you were to choose a good candidate that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to replace the stock drivers with, what would you go with? Thanks!
Here is the follow-up from Eminence: it’s a 2.5” coil though. Just looking at specs, I would have to say the Delta 12A or Delta12LFA are most similar.
I think one of you guys nailed it and suggested that speaker! Getting close to making a decision.
I think one of you guys nailed it and suggested that speaker! Getting close to making a decision.
Yes its really not that frustrating because there is only so many 12" drivers available off the shelf that would be good candidates for bass use.
those would already be mentioned.
Manufactures tend to use special design drivers.
The main intent for a bass driver is to keep, Fs or resonant frequency low as possible and to have decent xmax in the 3 to 5mm range
problem with high xmax is it takes a larger magnet, so you'll see 59 to 80 ounce ceramics to maintain
high sensitivity to maintain control of a larger gap/longer voice coil.
with a 4x12 you could get away with a 2" coil.
likely for a 2x12 you'd move to a 2.5 or 3" coil
Ive used the Beta12a2 in 4x12 Ampeg V4, SWR 4x12 and Marshall 4x12
We used a Beta12a2 for SWR 4x12 because the special design info i was giving
lined up to that driver.
As mentioned the early Gamma 2.5 inch with 56/59 ounce magnet was a earlier platform
for special design.
so you can press a 1.75, 2", 2.5" or 3" gap into a basket.
looked like a 80 ounce specified on your speaker that is why i assumed 3" coil.
if you look at your speaker the difference between a 59 or 80 ounce is obvious
anyways blah blah. for bass worthy Eminence off the shelf, you cant buy older gammas.
were looking at whats available. Gamma was nothing super special.
But older data is misleading cause some show lower xmax with gap / height measurements.
newer data makes xmax look larger using laser measurements
Beta 12a2 2" 38 ounce ceramic
Kappa 12a 3" 80 ounce ceramic
Kappa Pro 12a 3" 80 ounce ceramic
DeltaliteII 2512 2.5" 7 ounce Neo
Kappalite 3012HO 3" 11 ounce Neo
Beta , Kappa , Deltalite almost sound the same, fartout the same
3012HO is a upgrade more power handling, very slight highend difference
for the most part the kappa is using 3" coils for thermal reasons
and requires a larger magnet.
Real world fartout for bass is the same. for a Beta or a Kappa
Far as i can tell SWR used a 2" coil for the 4x12
and likely used a 2.5" for a 2x12 combo for thermal reasons.
and used a larger 56/59 ounce for the 2.5" and a 38 ounce for the 2"
Not to burst your bubble Delta12a is a pa midrange driver, not good for bass, farts out quickly.
Delta12LFA has very poor efficiency 94/95 dB. not a good bass driver.
plus they do not do well in small boxes without filtering.
The 12a2 will outperform those speakers in a bass application
even though the voicecoil is smaller.
Its more designed for bass use.
Also works better in smaller boxes mechanically.
a larger coil and magnet yes can mean a better bass driver, but its also mechanical design.
Delta is designed for more heat and different bandwidth/ application mechanically.
Even though a Special Design factory speaker for bass.
Might share similarities with off the shelf drivers.
The special design speaker has been designed to work with bass mechanically.
Goes with the advice people say measure the box etc etc.
A bass speaker usually designed to have lower Fs in 40 to 45hz range
PA speaker can move up to 50 to 55hz range
Likewise mechanically bass driver will survive in a smaller box
and not be a blooming nightmare.
Why i dont need to measure the box
I already know its small. And what bass drivers
wont be a blooming speaker in a small box.
likewise know fs is going to be 40 to 48 hz at most.
for the most part off the shelf Eminence 12" for bass use
are similar
Beta 12a2 2" coil 38 ounce
Basslite S2012 2" coil 4 ounce neo
Both those speakers mechanically sound the same work the same.
the basslite s2012 is just the neo version of the beta 12a2.
like i mentioned earlier special designs for bass use are similar to Kappas or Gammas
and used 2.5"/ 3" coils and larger 56/59 ounce magnets to make a 4mm bass driver
To be more cost effective Eminence did a 4mm bass driver with a smaller
magnet 38 ounce / smaller coil 2" to maintain same mechanically ability 4mm xmax/ small box/ and Sensitivity.
but reduced cost for magnet weight
hence also why a S2012 is cheaper 4 ounce neo.
plus its a stamp basket.
to step up into 2.5" and 3" coils they need larger 7 or 11 ounce neo magnets.
and the Kappa or Delta Neo drivers use a more expensive cast frame.
more neo, more cast aluminium means more money
All those speakers are just trying to maintain 4 to 6mm of travel. and 97/98 dB sensitivity
and work in small boxes.
Going to a bigger coil helps with heat, but you have to increase cost to maintain sensitivity
at 97/98 dB hence larger magnet.
Might share similarities with off the shelf drivers.
The special design speaker has been designed to work with bass mechanically.
Goes with the advice people say measure the box etc etc.
A bass speaker usually designed to have lower Fs in 40 to 45hz range
PA speaker can move up to 50 to 55hz range
Likewise mechanically bass driver will survive in a smaller box
and not be a blooming nightmare.
Why i dont need to measure the box
I already know its small. And what bass drivers
wont be a blooming speaker in a small box.
likewise know fs is going to be 40 to 48 hz at most.
for the most part off the shelf Eminence 12" for bass use
are similar
Beta 12a2 2" coil 38 ounce
Basslite S2012 2" coil 4 ounce neo
Both those speakers mechanically sound the same work the same.
the basslite s2012 is just the neo version of the beta 12a2.
like i mentioned earlier special designs for bass use are similar to Kappas or Gammas
and used 2.5"/ 3" coils and larger 56/59 ounce magnets to make a 4mm bass driver
To be more cost effective Eminence did a 4mm bass driver with a smaller
magnet 38 ounce / smaller coil 2" to maintain same mechanically ability 4mm xmax/ small box/ and Sensitivity.
but reduced cost for magnet weight
hence also why a S2012 is cheaper 4 ounce neo.
plus its a stamp basket.
to step up into 2.5" and 3" coils they need larger 7 or 11 ounce neo magnets.
and the Kappa or Delta Neo drivers use a more expensive cast frame.
more neo, more cast aluminium means more money
All those speakers are just trying to maintain 4 to 6mm of travel. and 97/98 dB sensitivity
and work in small boxes.
Going to a bigger coil helps with heat, but you have to increase cost to maintain sensitivity
at 97/98 dB hence larger magnet.
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I bought two OEM spares for my Silverado special about 6 years back... Think I still have them around here somewhere... let me check and get back to you...
SWR was not an OEM (original equipment manufacturer, but Eminence is an OEM! Like many (americans), it seems you do not understand what OEM is. Example:
BMW builds and sells cars, but they do not manufacture the steering rack and spark plugs. ZF manufactures the rack, which is sold only vis BMW, as a genuine BMW part. Bosch (for instance) makes spark plugs for BMW, with BMW logo, supplied exclusively to BMW dealers. They might also sell a technically identical plug, but with Bosch logo, in a Bosch package. These are OEM.
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Hmmm, I wonder why the guy at Eminence said it was very close, if not for the right application? I guess it may be similar to some specs, but not the ones that matter most.
So, without wasting a bunch of your time doing the research for, if you were in my shoes, and trying to achieve what I'm doing, would you have a good, better, best suggestion for s a few speakers I should consider?
Throw all the options in a hat and pick one. That's my very scientific way to solve this problem.
Why thank you my friend, especially with your OEM/American comment... Let me rephrase... Purchased two (2) speakers as spares for my Silverado Special, advertised as SWR factory direct, pre-Fender speakers... Will look for them when I get home... If I find them, they are yours D Rouge... no need for them
Actually, my Swedish brother, SWR is an OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer), just not on the component level or the OEM of the speakers... but I still get your point on the useage of the term.
I think you have mistaken BOTH sender and receiver when you posted this message. I am not the OP, and I addresse wasnex...
No, they are/were not, at least if we discuss their bass amps. OEM supply products (sub parts) used in assemblies sold by someother brand.
From Wiki:
"An original equipment manufacturer (OEM) is a company that produces parts and equipment that may be marketed by another manufacturer."
Anyways, good luck!
Well alrighty then. I am learning lots of new things in this thread! Thanks for the wishes of good luck, and enjoy your evening/morning! Cheers!
My Bad... actually happy I learned something today... tired eyes from looking for speakers to send to D Rouge...
No worries!My Bad... actually happy I learned something today... tired eyes from looking for speakers to send to D Rouge...
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Perhaps the native language difference accounts for your miusunderstanding of the post, but Wasnex was referring to SWR as the original equipment manufacturer of the product and Eminence can not support SWR's product even though they may have manufactured a component through their OEM program.
OEM is used in different ways depending on the context of how it's applied. Eminence is the OEM supplier to SWR, but SWR (or actually Fender and it's various contract manufacturers) is/was the original equipment manufacturer of the SWR product. I have to deal with this in context all the time.
Eminence data backs up my recollections exactly. It's essentially a Beta version driver which could be (at that time anyway) be built with either 2" or 2.5" VC's depending on the metalwork.
Because of the low Xmax, I think a Beta would be a substantial improvement though an adjustment to the box tuning MIGHT be necessary. I only have one of what I think was n almost exact copy. Does yours have an accordion or M-roll surround? the M-roll would have been the later version.
