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"Talent" and "being born with it"

I don't think having talent is a thing.

Do you share similar views on this? Or do you believe something else?

Thanks!
My wife has a saying - hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard.

This aligns with much of what you said, but does not deny that there are talents and gifts.

We have a musically gifted son who taught himself piano as a toddler and just completed the Midwestern part of his college visiting tour looking at Pipe Organ performance and composition. His ear is unreal. Perfect pitch too.

He’s also working hard, with some of the usual teen slacking moments to be sure but that is healthy. He’s a very well balanced and well adjusted individual and much less quirky than many who have such specific talents.

I rely more on my ear and a little on my ability to fake things than I do on hard work. I’d be a much better bass player if I’d taken lessons. If I practiced more….
 
As far as creative talent, I believe that it mostly comes from context, experience, and whatever head space a person is in. And not even just musical experience, but any experience that can be interpreted or applied to music, even if it's only subconsciously. Is the person sad, happy, frustrated, etc while writing? Did a car just drive by? I always feel like whatever a person's creative process is, any number of variables also contribute to the output, like a random number generator. Having an open mind in general is the easiest way to foster a creative talent.
 
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As many have said “ hard work can make up for a lack of natural ability “ and there is little doubt that certain people are simply born with more “ talent “ than others . I am in the “ no inherent talent club “ while a few good friends can identify key / chord and particular notes with immediate accuracy . While my hearing ability is very good - my ability to discern tonal distinctions between various notes is really poor despite years of trying . I still enjoy hacking away on my bass and do have fleeting moments of adequacy but I remain a mediocre player sadly . In other endeavors like being a stone mason I was quite skilled from the start it turned out . .... Kelly
 
I'm sure my opinion has been covered before as this thread is 126 messages long now, but just in case:

Talent definitely exists as certain things are easier for some people more than others. But you still need hard work, excelling in things outside your instrument (socially, work well with others, marketing/business acumen) to be any success.

Talent is only the cards you're dealt. You still have to learn how to play them.
 
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I think hard work pays off with technique and knowledge. Talent plays a big part with feel, style, and phrasing. I agree with most people on here that the majority of us have a combination of both. I certainly have always felt to have a talent for music, but I also work really hard.
 
Best combo, in my opinion, is a little talent/aptitude, and a lot of motivation. There has to be something 'there' to cultivate, but without effort and internal motivation there can be no success. I believe that this holds true for many things in life as well, not just music. I read somewhere that the number one trait of successful people is resiliency - the ability to bounce back after failure. Resiliency stems from motivation. I also believe that dumb luck (or the fickle finger of fate) plays a huge part in shaping the direction of our life...but that's another topic;)
 
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In other endeavors like being a stone mason I was quite skilled from the start it turned out . .... Kelly
You said "No inherent talent" person who's name probably means stone mason... very 'Umble

I know that lead trumpeters with longevity are born with the capacity. Eighty percent of normal people don't have the Quirk. (or the mind set) It might have to do with the lactic acid handling capacity that elite athletes are known to have, measurable genetically.
 
All of the extraordinary musicians I have know had something extra. Just a musicality about them and it seems like an innate ability to learn music easier. They all put in the time and countless hours of practice and honed their skills but I believe they started with something extra. Just like you couldn’t just choose to be an NFL quarterback or an Olympic sprinter. No matter how hard I worked, I just didn’t have the makeup to reach that level. HOWEVER, on the flip side, through hard work and practice you can become pretty good, even excellent at most things. I quit playing guitar and bass in high school because I thought I didn’t have “the gift”. I missed all the high school rock band and gigging band stuff some of my friends enjoyed. I started again in my 20’s but by then had kids and a career and only so much time. I’m an old dude now but a pretty good player and I’m in two bands and it could be more if I had the time. Maybe this will be my part time income when I retire in a year or two.
 
I have definitely come across born talent. They have worked hard but some things are just easier to them.
I don't believe you can equalise this through hard work alone.
You either have it or you don't and whilst there are degrees of 'it' if you can't sing a note, you can't sing.
Playing bass has that too.
 
I really disagree. Not everyone, and certainly not most people, can excel at a particular task no matter how much work they put in. It’s genetics. You can be great at some things with no effort and suck at some things despite years of hard work. You can get better if you work at it, but that’s not universal.

Correct. In spite of all my years of practice, hard work, and love for the instrument, there is no question that I'm still a crummy bassist. I simply don't have "the gift". But, it doesn't mean I love it any less.

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In my opinion, you can be born with a talent, for some people it's easier to learn something. As they learn that thing, they will put more effort into it and they will eventually become good at what they do. For example my grandfather was a known musician in Mexico, at least where he lived. He played a few instruments including guitar, and also sang. I never met him as he passed before I was born. Ever since I was very young, I loved music, all my toys were musical instruments. Many people say that I got the love for music and instruments from him, even though we never met.
 
Two things. I think it may be best to think the way you do whether it's the truth or not. With work, absolutely anyone can get better. That much is nearly universally true.

It actually may not be theoretically valid to separate hard work and genetics, as if they are two completely separate things. I think someone who, like Mike Clark the drummer, has spent 12hrs. a day practicing productively, might be genetically gifted in a way that allows them to do THAT, because honestly, I never could. I also think it can be easier for someone gifted to work that hard because it pays off. I hit diminishing returns pretty quickly, so practice isn't as rewarding to me as it is for someone very gifted. Which goes hand in hand with the idea most of those who are really good put in A LOT of hours to get there. They didn't just pick up an instrument and immediately excel. They often work harder than anyone else.

Bottom line is there are a lot of ways to get, and be good. If you try hard, you might find one of those ways.
 
Did not read all 8 pages so far, so sorry if this has been mentioned:

In general, I avoid talking about "talent" and prefer to speak of "ability." I've seen far too many people who have this notion that "talent" is just this pre-existing "thing" that you "find" and then BOOM - you're a genius (even if you need to cultivate it a bit). In general, I don't believe in that. I think it encourages way too much laziness and despair ("Why bother, I'm not talented").

I've been reading a fair amount related to psychology and the brain lately, related to my teaching, and it's been interesting. There is a tendency for some people to talk about "genetics," but I've never heard a geneticist identify the "music talent gene." What's getting a lot more attention in current neurology, though, is neuroplasticity. That means that, whatever genetic starting point it has, the brain actually grows and changes, making connections between neurons. This happens especially fast when young (think language acquisition) but to some extent through a person's entire life.

What that means is that by the age a person first is physically capable of manipulating an instrument, their brain has already been forming and morphing based on all kinds of factors, internal and external; but also that WHILE they are having the experience of manipulating an instrument and trying to get music out of it, the brain's neurons are CONSTANTLY zapping and linking and making connections tied to what they're doing, morphing the brain into new configurations around that experience.

So it's probably true, what we observe, that some people seem to just take to an instrument faster and more "naturally" - by whatever means, their brains were primed for it already and the neural links were easy to make from there. It isn't that they were destined from birth by genetics to be great musicians, but it's not just an illusion that they did seem "natural" to it.

There are a few specific things that are useful to musicians that may indeed be purely genetic. Perfect pitch comes to mind, which seems to be you-have-it-or-you-don't, pretty much. You can train your brain to good relative pitch and your memory can retain the pitch of a familiar song pretty exactly (there have been studies done where they compared people singing a song from memory to recordings of the song and they tend to hit pretty close to the recording's pitch - if I type "Just a small-town girl," you're probably hearing Steve Perry's exact notes in your head), but to hear a note without context and know what it is, is an innate gift.

There are also physical things - the timbre of a singer's voice isn't just skill, it's lungs and throat and bone structure, and most of us don't have Pavarotti's sinuses. A pianist with big hands will be able to hit big chords with a wide span more easily (and thus saving effort for more complex matters) than one with small hands. Etc.
 
I have various minor talents related to music writing and performance: I have an ear for melodies, hooks and song structure (although the song structure part is diminishing with age). I write good lyrics, and I have a certain commitment to performance. None of these are earth shattering. I certainly don't have any specific musical genius.

When I was first learning in high school, there were lots of kids who could just embarrass me, they were so much better than me. I remember one of them giving my advice on sweep picking to try to help my herky-jerky guitar style. There was no way I was gonna be able to do that. Some of these kids became pros, and a couple are even well-known. Talent and hard work paid off for them.

But I've been playing for 40 years now, and with those few exceptions, most of the "talented" kids quit decades ago, and I'm better at playing music than they ever were, even if they could still probably learn a cover tune a bit faster than I can. I also know people who are less talented and educated than I am who have made legit careers in music for themselves (as I have not) by fitting themselves into a niche and playing their parts well.

And I've also found nearly every pro sounds like a pro, however limited their talents may be. Compared to the pros, nearly every non-pro, however gifted, lacks a certain consistency and feel for what works.

You can make good music with modest talent at best. Experience and learning count for a lot. Experience can't make you Mozart or Charlie Parker, but it can make you a musician.
 
There's really no question here as far as whether people can be born with things that help them be better at something. Being 7ft tall can be very helpful if you want to play in the NBA, and you can work at that all you want...
 
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