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"Talent" and "being born with it"
- Thread starter Katoosie
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Maybe that was tongue and cheek, and I'll assume it is not a sincere position. Still the quote "those who can, do, those who can't teach" is an erroneous, unfounded, condescending and false idiom from the 1930's. Lifelong educators John Pattituci, Robben Ford, Victor Wooten, Jeff Berlin, Larry Carlton, Janek Gwizdala, Stu Hamm, Federico Malaman, Carol Kaye, Steve Baily, Carl Verheyen, Tony Grey, Allen Hinds etc. etc. etc. etc. truly countless others in this exhaustive list clearly ignore it but have to live with it's pervasiveness.
I fully disagree. My best friend and I played guitar in high school, both started around the same age and played the same music with each other. He practiced all the time, it's all he did and I played a lot but not nearly as much as he did. Even after 5-6 years his playing sounded stiff and without feel or timing and he couldn't improvise anything. He could memorize it, but never play creatively or with any emotion. I, on the other hand, was blessed with a better internal timing and ear for music. I learned by ear, I could play things and make them "feel" like something instead of just a string of notes. Even years after we got together and played and it was as if he had never progressed past the initial year of learning, clunky and heavy handed without feeling. I am no virtuoso and can be sloppy as hell (on guitar) but I truly believe I was just given a little extra part of something special musically and he wasn't. I don't think he could put 10000 hours into it and be any better.
"being born with it" doesnt mean you picked it up the first time and were amazing. two people can put the exact same work into an instrument, one can be amazing, one can suck. thats being born with it or not. doent mean you have to be born with it to have the talent, sometimes it just takes more work. for some people no matter how much work they put into will never get it. thats clearly not being born with it.
I think true talent (the "it") factor exists. I also think hard work pays off. Practice, repetition, dedication and finding a good teacher who "connects" with their students can make any aspiring musician excel.
I fall into the "hard working" category. I will never be Victor Wooten or Billy Sheehan (insert any amazing bassists names you want), but I am an average to above average/proficient bassist who enjoys performing and always push myself to get better.
I fall into the "hard working" category. I will never be Victor Wooten or Billy Sheehan (insert any amazing bassists names you want), but I am an average to above average/proficient bassist who enjoys performing and always push myself to get better.
Whether one “has it” or not, it seems there is no substitute for putting the hours in.
We live in an era where people think they can watch 3 hours of music lessons on YouTube and be competent musicians.
I hear these commercials for “learning a foreign language in 3 weeks” and having learned a couple of languages, know that’s utter nonsense. Obviously some have an easier time than others but there is no substitute for practice.
We live in an era where people think they can watch 3 hours of music lessons on YouTube and be competent musicians.
I hear these commercials for “learning a foreign language in 3 weeks” and having learned a couple of languages, know that’s utter nonsense. Obviously some have an easier time than others but there is no substitute for practice.
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I’ve seen Jaco mentioned a few times here and although I’d love to have a fraction of his talent, I’d much rather live my life as a mediocre bassist and have some semblance of a normal life. The little ive read on his life sounds dismal at best.
I think the mind state get glossed over in the oversimplified dichotomy of “ talent vs hard work”
to me “hard work” or “practice” is not simply hours on the instrument. What you practice, and especially your state of mind while you practice is also a critical part to growth and learning. I’m learning piano right now, I suck and I’ll never be Dr John but I’m loving every minute of it! If I mindlessly execute scales wondering when my “talent” will show up it probably won’t. I suppose that is the Growth Mindset vs Fixed.
I suspect the anecdotal untalented folks who “practice for hours and never improve “ are just practicing wrong and don’t have their mind in the proper state for good learning. Nor do they have a mentor to set them straight.
rarely mentioned in the anecdotal freakishly talented folks is the presence of a mentor or mentors as well - quite often family members but not always. Think of Victor Wooten’s brothers, Jacob Collier’s mum.
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success in bass (or anything) is the intersection and summation of three factors: innate talent, desire, and hard work.
If you have all three and act on all three, you'll probably go pretty far and be one of the bassists we talk about on TB.
If you excel in any two of those elements, you might be pretty good.
If you just have one and not the other two, you're probably going nowhere.
If you have all three and act on all three, you'll probably go pretty far and be one of the bassists we talk about on TB.
If you excel in any two of those elements, you might be pretty good.
If you just have one and not the other two, you're probably going nowhere.
I agree. Using myself as an example. I have yet to meet a string or wind instrument I can not learn to play on my own. It happens without much effort. With a little practice I can get noticeably better. Most of them I do not spend the time on to get really good, but that is on me. There are lots of other activities that no matter how much I work at it the improvements are minimal. I would like to be able to draw well, but that never gets any better. Kind of pushed it aside. As a kid I wanted to play sports. Worked hard, practiced a lot, but always ended up sitting on the bench.
Pretty much ( whilst I have no idea who Tom Brady is).
I'd consider oportunity (circumstances that support ones endevour - time and money for example) quite important also, however.
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"Talent" most assuredly exists, in all areas. We are biological machines, and not all built to the same specifications. This applies as much to brain structure/ sound processing as finger length and proportional muscle thickness. We can progress dramatically within these parameters, but there are limits imposed by structure. In terms of how we perceive sound, I recommend reading this very enjoyable tome.....nothing gets done without work, but not all workers can achieve the same results. This book by the late, brilliant neurologist Oliver Sachs helps us understand that some people are truly tone deaf, while others have perfect pitch, and others are somewhere in between.
https://www.amazon.ca/Musicophilia-...1&keywords=musicophilia&qid=1626787649&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.ca/Musicophilia-...1&keywords=musicophilia&qid=1626787649&sr=8-1
I know I have a talent for music, but I know I don't have the "it" factor. I also play guitar and can't believe how many youngsters out there who can blow my door off who've only been playing for a few years. Good for them and I love it! I do find it of comfort knowing that even the greats have done their fair share of woodshedding. I remember what Alex Van Halen said about Eddie: "One night (back when we were playing bars and parties) we had a night off and I went out on a date. When I left at 7 PM Ed was sitting on the edge of his bed practicing. I got back home at 3 in the morning and Ed was still in the same spot practicing. This was very typical of him."
You are one of the few people in the thread to use the relevant psychological term here. I wanted to highlight it.
There is a ton of research on this, not exclusive to music, but in general psychologists (I haz degree) and educators use the terms here aptitude and achievement.
Talent can be seen as a lay term for aptitude, albeit fuzzily used. A more psychological definition is that there are innate cognitive strengths/weakness people have. These are how they think not what they've learned. The latter is achievement.
Mainly dropping some useful terms if people wanted to learn more. But in brief, a psychological perspective on this discussion is that both achievement and aptitude around being a great musician are both:
multi-faceted. What is a great musician? perfect sight reading, great improv, composition? There are multiple cognitively definable aptitudes and achievements involved. And each of these has both an aptitude and achievement...
on a continuum. E.g. One could be really tone deaf (serious challenge to overcome even with practice, though few people are really completely tone deaf ). One could have perfect pitch (a somewhat helpful trait). With most somewhere in the middle with being able to match pitch, recognize intervals. E.g. rhythmically, you have a continuum of aptitudes. My son wandered into an acoustic jam when he was 2 and played hand drums totally competently. My mother can barely recognize when the four bars come around to start singing despite having grown up with a extremely accomplished gigging guitar player dad, music lessons from toddlerhood.
Hard work is important but only goes so far. It's the reason I've stopped spending large amounts of money on bass gear. I practice, and enjoy playing. But the best I'll ever be is an average country or bluegrass type player. The bass lines from that 80s band Alabama? The Eagles? That's my style out of necessity.
It's really all the speed and complexity I can handle, as far as physical talent.
I also think the age you start plays a huge role. You start at 16 and practice all the time you're certainly much better off than starting in your 30s looking for a new hobby.
It's really all the speed and complexity I can handle, as far as physical talent.
I also think the age you start plays a huge role. You start at 16 and practice all the time you're certainly much better off than starting in your 30s looking for a new hobby.
As a music teacher, someone can have all the talent in the world (and yes, talent does exist), but if they have a bad attitude, bad work ethic, and aren't willing to always look at ways to get better, that talent is wasted. Talent is the first step... individual will to succeed and the ability to be developed into something better is more important.
Now that I have kids, it is clear to me that people are born with different interests and abilities. Your physical and mental gifts, what you're "born with," is always going to be part of the equation - BUT, I think the most important thing you are "born with" is what you are interested in, what excites you, what makes you happy, etc. At the end of the day, your love of things is what makes you put the time in and get good - much more important than being born with strong fingers or good memory or perfect pitch, or any other "natural gift" that may be beneficial for musicians.
A bit of a side track here.....I have 3 daughters who developed into highly gifted artists. Never took lessons, they noodled during their early years, but as time progressed, they started to put out some amazing drawings, paintings, sketches to the point where they won numerous awards at the state and national level in high school. Sure, they had some classes in school, but mainly to enhance and further develop perspective, as they called it. I remember talking to the some of their teachers, and they'd say, "with your girls, we're not really doing anything, they're doing it from the heart, mind and with their God given abilities." My late mother was a gifted musician and artist, so yeah, maybe there's something with the DNA thing. IDK. I'm a fairly good musician, certainly no prodigy, but the best thing I ever did was to take 5 years of piano lessons as a kid, it's just never left me, it's always stuck with me, and helped me with my bass journey. Thought provoking topic here.
