Taste? Nope, none of that here

[ImaStupidBaby]

I certainly don't feel people who commit suicide are worthless trash. To the contrary, all people have great worth. I have great sympathy for family members who have had to endure such a tragedy. In the end though, it's a completely selfish decision. I've been with family members who have just had a loved one commit suicide. I've picked brains up off of floors and ceilings. I've told parents their child is gone. Again, I'm very sorry for someone's personal tragedy, but what someone who commits suicide does to those he leaves behind is worse than anything that has been done to him.[/QUOTE]

+1
My girlfriend's father commited suicide when she was 9. She loves him more than anything, but hates him too because it is the WORST way to handle any situation. The pressures of fame and fortune might be different for Kurt than her dad, but that doesnt make Kurt's (or anyone else's) suicide any more "right" or understandable. Suicide is not a thing to be taken lightly, but it's the cowardly and disrespectful way out of a bad situation. Get help, talk to somebody, turn your life over to somebody else's hands for a while if you cant manage your issues.

My aunt couldn't communicate, couldn't walk, she needed a machine to help her breathe at night (it was basically an iron lung), hell she couldn't even take a **** without someone there to wipe her and take care of her. Sorry but she gets to be a little bit selfish after suffering for years with a terrible, terminal, incurable disease.

 

[Nikoubis]

Epic thread. Mainly thanks to Chris2112, but others have contributed too.

 

[Fontaine]

You know what I love most about you Chris?

It isn't your awful taste in music or your tendency to not add anything to conversations or even your completely black and white view of artists (whatever you like being the greatest thing ever and everything else completely sucking) but rather your ability to display all three in unrelated conversations while adding facts not in evidence.

Keep on keepin' on chief.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[jazzy grille]

Given the level of cheap shotting and idiocy in this thread, I've decided I'll not bother revisiting it!

LOL!

Welcome to the interwebs!

 

[jomahu]

good grief. i go on a gig and this is what happens.

 

[coolrunner989]

Re: those who says it's selfish to keep someone here against their will - I would agree, to a point. It depends on how bad off they are, if they've seriously tried to get back up, and a thousand other things. I hate making generalizations, but when you dont stop to consider the impact of your death on your loved ones when you havent taken every step possible to stay around, I call that selfish. Usually.

Take it with a grain of salt, I'm not trying to anger anyone or set off sparks, just putting my 2 cents out there.

 

[Jared Lash]

I hate making generalizations, but when you dont stop to consider the impact of your death on your loved ones when you havent taken every step possible to stay around, I call that selfish. Usually.

I think this is true, but at the same time, someone (of sound body) who is seriously considering ending their life is by definition not thinking rationally. You could just as easily say that all those loved ones that are being left behind didn't do enough to get that person the help they needed.

Depression is a strange thing. Often times family members get frustrated trying to deal with a family member in the worst throes of it and don't know what to do and end up doing nothing.

I'm not the world's biggest Nirvana fan so I couldn't tell you what Kurt Cobain was going through that made him want to end his life. I heard he had constant stomach (?) pain and I'm sure drugs played a role, but my brother's old neighbor was an engineer on the Nevermind album and he told me that everyone around him knew Cobain was unstable and possibly suicidal. While ultimately he made the decision to end his life, there were a lot of people that could have done more to prevent it.

 

[ImaStupidBaby]

Re: those who says it's selfish to keep someone here against their will - I would agree, to a point. It depends on how bad off they are, if they've seriously tried to get back up, and a thousand other things. I hate making generalizations, but when you dont stop to consider the impact of your death on your loved ones when you havent taken every step possible to stay around, I call that selfish. Usually.

Take it with a grain of salt, I'm not trying to anger anyone or set off sparks, just putting my 2 cents out there.

I kind of agree with you. But I think that we have should be allowed to choose our own ways. And if we can make a rational decision to remove ourselves from this existence, then I do not believe that it is wrong. I watched my aunt ( I know I'm harping on this ) die of a terrible disease. The woman I will marry has a 50% chance of dying of a terminal, neurodegenerative, incurable disease. My aunt chose, and if my wife chooses, to end their unconscionable suffering, I do not think that they are wrong for it. Please, look up what Lou Gehrig's and Huntington's disease do to people, and tell me that they would be wrong for ending the suffering of themselves, their caretakers, and the people who love and care about them.

 

[TrooperFarva]

I think this is true, but at the same time, someone (of sound body) who is seriously considering ending their life is by definition not thinking rationally.

That's a tough condition to nail down though. They may have mental problems that medications and therapy can't help, but otherwise be of sound body.

 

[cheezewiz]

I'm glad you've familiarized yourself with the situation of each individual on earth, amassing a vast knowledge of what they've done, what they've been through, and what their life is like. I only wish I had a way to collect such an immeasurable quantity of information, to allow me to make sweeping generalizations.

Thanks man. You're a true bro. When you have 1/4 the experience that I do with these situations, I'll possibly take your opinions seriously. Oh wait, no I won't.

 

[cheesemonkey]

Thanks man. You're a true bro. When you have 1/4 the experience that I do with these situations, I'll possibly take your opinions seriously. Oh wait, no I won't.

and thats what discredits your whole argument

 

[john turner]

i agree, it is devastating to pick up the pieces afterwards.
that said, having known many depressed/suicidal folks - at the end of the day, if they're not happy in this world, then i have no right to demand or judge that they stay here if they think they'll be happier somewhere else.
their life, their body, their choice. IMHO.

mental disease is not a choice. that's like saying "let's forego the chemo, the cancer is their choice, not our problem".

cobain was self-medicating a mental disease, and he was enabled by his wealth and the throng of hanger-ons who cared nothing for him personally. same thing happened with layne staley - everyone watched his descent into hell and obviously felt that they were "respecting his wishes" by not helping him climb out again.

 

[john turner]

That's a tough condition to nail down though. They may have mental problems that medications and therapy can't help, but otherwise be of sound body.

medications and therapy can -always- help. it ends up being a question of how much they help.

 

[Eric Perry]

same thing happened with layne staley - everyone watched his descent into hell and obviously felt that they were "respecting his wishes" by not helping him climb out again.

What a HUGE loss that was.

 

[cheezewiz]

and thats what discredits your whole argument

I didn't say I was disregarding everyone's opinion. Just Tpr Favres. I disregard his opinion on almost every topic. I thought I knew everything when I was 15 too. Same at 25. I certainly DON'T know everything now, but the fact I was dealing with this LONG before you were born, and while TprFavre was still still pooping in his pants and sucking a pacifier, gives me a certain amount of credibility. My argument consists of only one thing, suicide is a selfish act.
I'm not arguing about mental illness and it's devastating toll. I'm not arguing about the other poster's terminally ill aunt. Although I may not condone suicide in that case, I can certainly understand it.

 

[jomahu]

mental disease is not a choice. that's like saying "let's forego the chemo, the cancer is their choice, not our problem".

i understand your POV. what i meant was not in reference to the illness, but the treatment. i believe everyone should have the right to do what he/she thinks is right for him/her, not what everyone else thinks he/she should do.

and if it means taking his/her own life, then....ok. do i wish they would do that? of course not. but it's not my choice.

and i'm out, i've messed this thread up enough. sorry y'all.

 

[cheezewiz]

i understand your POV. what i meant was not in reference to the illness, but the treatment. i believe everyone should have the right to do what he/she thinks is right for him/her, not what everyone else thinks he/she should do.

and if it means taking his/her own life, then....ok. do i wish they would do that? of course not. but it's not my choice.

and i'm out, i've messed this thread up enough. sorry y'all.

So someone who is mentally incapable of making a decision by reason of illness, should be allowed to make a life ending decision?

 

[john turner]

i understand your POV. what i meant was not in reference to the illness, but the treatment. i believe everyone should have the right to do what he/she thinks is right for him/her, not what everyone else thinks he/she should do.

and if it means taking his/her own life, then....ok. do i wish they would do that? of course not. but it's not my choice.

and i'm out, i've messed this thread up enough. sorry y'all.

no mess up - it's a good discussion, imo, and should be had as often as possible.

if someone is physically impaired to the point where they are unable or unwilling to go to the doctor, that does not mean we respect that choice and let them rot in bed.

mental disease should be treated in the same manner.

 

[jomahu]

no mess up - it's a good discussion, imo, and should be had as often as possible.

if someone is physically impaired to the point where they are unable or unwilling to go to the doctor, that does not mean we respect that choice and let them rot in bed.

mental disease should be treated in the same manner.

yeh, i understand where you're coming from. thing is, in my line of work - social services-related - we're trained to respect the wishes of the person we're working with.
so, for example, even if the person has admitted that they are in a dangerous situation but has made a decision that it is the most beneficial to them at that point (having been made aware of the options available to them), then we must repect their wishes and work with them within that context.

so, that's how i approach these things. i'm sure that others who work in different sorts of emergency services are trained otherwise.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

In Japan a planned suicide is considered dignified and noble is some cases. It stems from the old Samurai tradition of suicide instead of surrender. It was a very formal ritual complete with witnesses and supervision. Seppuku or Hara kiri (stomach cutting) kind of stems from the transitory view of death in Buddhism. Even today suicide is not viewed with the stigma that it is here in the west. Death before dishonor happens a lot in the case of failed businesses, being caught having an affair, or even by kids failing exams. However, there is a certain sense of responsibility attached to the act in Japan, where often the person committing suicide attempts to accommodate those the death might affect.

Still, I can't help but feeling that Kurt Cobain's suicide was much more of an impulsive thing due to the swings of manic depression fueled by drugs. I've read interviews with Cobain, and accounts of people who knew him, and I can't help but thing that if he really thought this out, and how it would affect his daughter, he would be alive today, but because of the nature of his mental illness, impulsive actions are much more the norm. I also think it's what made him such a great performer.