It was confusing to me also but Bongo showed me the light when I was looking for a way to protect my ears and speakers from sharp peaks. Go to www.ovnilab.com for all the info I needed. He is like the KJung for compressors
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TC Electronic RH450 discussion - Tweaking the Preamp
- Thread starter Eublet
- Start date
It was confusing to me also but Bongo showed me the light when I was looking for a way to protect my ears and speakers from sharp peaks. Go to www.ovnilab.com for all the info I needed. He is like the KJung for compressors
Rick Auricchio
Registered Bass Offender
Limiting is just a more extreme form of gain reduction. Most compressors can be set such that they limit the signal, using a high compression ratio. Fancier limiters will do "brick-wall limiting," to guarantee the signal doesn't exceed the desired level. These are often used for in-ear monitor feeds.
When using a compressor, one usually cranks the gain till the softest signals come through at an acceptable level. The comp then reduces gain on the louder signals. The end result is to reduce the difference between loudest and softest parts of the signal.
If you listen to Sheryl Crow's studio vocals, you can hear they're almost always at a constant level. They've turned up the overall gain to maintain the quiet parts, and used compression/limiting to squeeze the louder parts down to match.
You can also set limiting to only attach the sharpest of peaks so your dynamics are there but large peaks receive hard limiting. Using the spectracomp as is doesn't limit hard enough when I try to engage on only the hardest peaks.
+1 I totally understand how compression works when mastering tracks, etc. (many say it is why todays recorded music sounds so, well,... compressed
).However, it seems to me that a compressor and limiter would be VERY similar in a live, backline bass guitar ampification situation.
I don't use compression at all, but do have a preset on my RH450 I mess around with that has a very low amount of compression dialed in (i.e., it just engages on the hardest, lowest hits on the E and B string) that seems to just take the edge off the peak transients when slapping. It sounds like 'pure limiting' to me, since the compressor doesn't even engage 90% of the time, and when it does, only on the loudest, hardest hits down low.
Put another way, it seems that the default compressor settings on the RH450 act as a limiter when set as I describe above.
True, but she's probably going through an LA2A that does a good job of that!
Compression and limiting are much the same in a sense. Hard or Brickwall limiting is a bit different in that NONE of the signal is compressed until it reaches a certain level, and then the gain is reduced to keep it at that level. How well a compressor is at that really effects how it sounds. Typically VCA-based compressors are quicker and don't over-compensate as much as pedals do. Some optical compressors are really good also, but those usually aren't pedal based either. Compressor options are endless, and the thrust of my earlier statements were just meant to suggest that the end result on the RH450 may or may not be favorable, and it would be very subjective from person to person on that final judgement. I can try to give an opinion, but generally speaking most compressors are poor at limiting in general, especially pedals and integrated head compressors. You really need studio quality gear to do it right IMHO.
I'll test with the TLC. Again the only pedal that came close was the Maxon for me, and even then only with 4 string instruments. It struggled with 5 strings also, but then again so did the DBX 160. The 166xl did better because it had a button that decreased sensitivity for lower frequencies. I've used a Distressor some which does a great job, but that's pretty pricey for just a compressor. I've owned an EBS Multicomp, which was okay for compression, but not limiting. Also had a Demeter Compulator which cut peaks off great, but it sucked dynamics at those extreme levels also making it worthless as a limiter. It was GREAT at smooth compression though. Punchfactory was worthless for limiting. I've had a handful of others also but won't keep going.
I've read most every review at Bongo's website. Good stuff, and I agree and disagree with his opinions on various items he's reviewed. That's the nature of compression though. It's very subjective as to what one person will like or not like. IMO, a good compressor setup correctly makes a huge difference in ones stage tone and ability to really push things, especially for some kinds of music. I have high hopes for the TLC, but it's not for limiting.
Tell me where you set your TLC. I know the compressor reacts differently based on input gain, but at least I'll know about what slope and attack parameters you are using.
I'll test with the TLC. Again the only pedal that came close was the Maxon for me, and even then only with 4 string instruments. It struggled with 5 strings also, but then again so did the DBX 160. The 166xl did better because it had a button that decreased sensitivity for lower frequencies. I've used a Distressor some which does a great job, but that's pretty pricey for just a compressor. I've owned an EBS Multicomp, which was okay for compression, but not limiting. Also had a Demeter Compulator which cut peaks off great, but it sucked dynamics at those extreme levels also making it worthless as a limiter. It was GREAT at smooth compression though. Punchfactory was worthless for limiting. I've had a handful of others also but won't keep going.
I've read most every review at Bongo's website. Good stuff, and I agree and disagree with his opinions on various items he's reviewed. That's the nature of compression though. It's very subjective as to what one person will like or not like. IMO, a good compressor setup correctly makes a huge difference in ones stage tone and ability to really push things, especially for some kinds of music. I have high hopes for the TLC, but it's not for limiting.
Tell me where you set your TLC. I know the compressor reacts differently based on input gain, but at least I'll know about what slope and attack parameters you are using.
Rick Auricchio
Registered Bass Offender
Yeah, I think what you're describing is definitely a gray area. The problem is that adjusting the Spectracomp knob not only effects threshold, but slope as well. Different basses would cause the Spectracomp to react differently at the same setting. Adjusting the knob to compensate for that changes more than the threshold, so the end result isn't the same from bass to bass. That's the first no-no in what I'd call a "real" limiter, or even a "real" compressor for that matter. Being able to control threshold and slope independently are musts for me personally. Attach/Release times are next on the list, but aren't as important to me if they're designed for bass to begin with. That's what makes pedals like the TLC so attractive.
But back to the RH450, the default settings seem to be great for smooth compression in a live setting. No complaints at all about it. One of the best I've ever encountered in an integrated head, and it beats most pedals, and can even compete with some of the moderately priced rack units. There just isn't a lot of tweaking you can do on the head itself. The software does let you tailor the settings for "one bass", but then they're saved such that you'd get different results for a different bass. As a result, I think the default settings are ideal for most. Am I making sense?
Makes sense. Again, I never found the need for any sort of limiting or compression live, so never really went to school on it.
For most of the things I do, I agree. 95% of the time it's not necessary. Occasionally I do play in some very aggressive rock bands, and dynamics can get out of control very quickly. I suck at that kind of playing though, but even guys like Marcus believe in and use compression because it enhances their performance. It's certainly not a makeup for bad technique. I've heard Marcus and Wooten talk about practicing their technique such that all the various percussive things they do remain as smooth and connected as possible. I think that's the key. If you don't ask that much from a compressor, it's a whole lot easier to get good results from them.
+1 If slap style is a big part of your performance, I can surely see the advantage of taking a bit of the edge off of the peaks and evening out the volume between the slaps and pops and taps a bit more than even the best technique could accomplish. I assume there is some benefit if you use a lot of effects also, etc.
Folks,
I hate to say it, but I rarely visit the "Amps" section here at TB any more. There is no need. I don't need another amp (or cab as my RS 112 and 210 and my Sadowsky SA410 are amazing) and likely won't for a while.
Why? After blowing through a different amp every few months for the last few years, I have realized that the RH450 is THE amp for me. Period.
I sold my SVT, sold my GK 1001RB-II and will be selling my GBE1200.
This is truly a professional quality piece of gear that sounds amazing, is light as hell and has tons of headroom.
Just wanted to give up a bit of RH450 love.
Back to your regularly scheduled thread.
I hate to say it, but I rarely visit the "Amps" section here at TB any more. There is no need. I don't need another amp (or cab as my RS 112 and 210 and my Sadowsky SA410 are amazing) and likely won't for a while.
Why? After blowing through a different amp every few months for the last few years, I have realized that the RH450 is THE amp for me. Period.
I sold my SVT, sold my GK 1001RB-II and will be selling my GBE1200.
This is truly a professional quality piece of gear that sounds amazing, is light as hell and has tons of headroom.
Just wanted to give up a bit of RH450 love.
Back to your regularly scheduled thread.
It is an awesome head and the cabs are outstanding.
My GB is now in the classifieds!
P.S. My apologies for posting in this thread... I thought it was the mega TC thread!
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
If I'm playing someplace where I need a lot of volume, e.g., outdoors without PA support, I will sometimes put a Demeter Compulator pedal in front of my iAmp800 to boost the input signal and coax out a little volume without clipping audibly; I haven't measured the differences in output with my SPL meter yet, but to my ears, I'm guessing the increase is a little more than 3dB.
Can anyone comment on the same situation with the RH450 or S51? Can a hot input signal coax out more volume without clipping or limiting audibly?
Ever since Ken said the RH450 would be at least the equal of the iAmp800, I've been itching to try an RH450 or S51, but I'm wary of buying another amp that doesn't have the features & power to easily handle all of my gigs on electric, EUB, and DB.
Then, I may feel more comfortable thinning the herd.
Can anyone comment on the same situation with the RH450 or S51? Can a hot input signal coax out more volume without clipping or limiting audibly?
Ever since Ken said the RH450 would be at least the equal of the iAmp800, I've been itching to try an RH450 or S51, but I'm wary of buying another amp that doesn't have the features & power to easily handle all of my gigs on electric, EUB, and DB.
Then, I may feel more comfortable thinning the herd. 
If I'm playing someplace where I need a lot of volume, e.g., outdoors without PA support, I will sometimes put a Demeter Compulator pedal in front of my iAmp800 to boost the input signal and coax out a little volume without clipping audibly; I haven't measured the differences in output with my SPL meter yet, but to my ears, I'm guessing the increase is a little more than 3dB.
Can anyone comment on the same situation with the RH450 or S51? Can a hot input signal coax out more volume without clipping or limiting audibly?
Ever since Ken said the RH450 would be at least the equal of the iAmp800, I've been itching to try an RH450 or S51, but I'm wary of buying another amp that doesn't have the features & power to easily handle all of my gigs on electric, EUB, and DB.
I sold my Iamp800 to buy the Rh450. I think they are pretty equivalent volume wise, as EA exagerrates their wattage, and TC understates. Sofar, I haven't missed the Iamp too much, but there are some differences:
1. The Iamp is broader spectrum. It produces lows down to 30 hz and is capable of snappier highs.
2. The Rh450 OTOH, has a low pass filter that rolls off the highs at 5k, and also doesn't produce the same level of bass frequency. It is a more of a midrange rocker. That is why it might SEEM louder than the Iamp, because alot of the Iamp's juice is being sucked up trying to produce 30hz subharmonics. This will also depends on cabs of course. The TC Electronic cabs match amazingly with the RH450 and are very efficient, sounding quite loud for their small size and weight. Other cabs may suck up more juice from the RH450. Also, the eq is WAY more powerful than on the Iamp800, where I remember the eq controls being a little more sublte. The RH eq radically effects the tone in the midrange in particular.
3. The Staccato has more extended high and low end, and may be better for your style. (i haven't played on, see the other TC thread for much debate between the two)
4. Like you, I play jazz, rock, country if asked, and wanted a flexible, lightweight solution. sofar, the RH450 hasn't let me down, but it is definetly geared to the rock/blues/country side more than the marcus miller slap tone.
5. I am in between uprights, having sold mine last year and not replaced it yet (long story) so I can't comment on it's performance on an upright or EUB.
6. I don't think using the compulator will be nessary to get more volume out of the RH450. The input gain is one of the things I didn't like about the Iamp800, and it seems to be not an issue at all omn the RH 450 wether using a passive or active bass.
7. The compulator is a great pedal that you may prefer over the spectracomp, they are very different. The compulator has that soft knee and long slope, it really gives the bass a modern type of sustain like the way many records are made. I personally sold my compulator as I ended up not being happy with it.
Sofar, the spectracomp hasn't really blown me away either but I am still experimented with it. For rock tones, I find the tube tone provides its own, VERY tube amp like compression that is all I need in those situations. The RH450 seems to prefer less input gain, and clips quite unpleasantly if you overdrive the input so I don't think using your compulator or any pedal to increase gain will help you get more volume.
Hope this helps! You really need to play the RH450 through your cabs and basses to know for sure, but I tell you this, I don't mind having an 8lb amp that I can safely haul in a gigbag and it definetly sounds more like what I wanted for rock and roots type music which is most of what I do.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Wow, what a thoughtful post! Thanks, engedi1.
Now all I have to do is find someplace to listen to 'em!
Now all I have to do is find someplace to listen to 'em!
It's actually more than that. It's ALSO got significantly reduced mids. IMHO, having the ability to extend the lows and highs doesn't necessarily hit you as hard in a mix as also pulling out mids.
