It's all about the "tone of this thread", that's what the Harpy reference is all about, not individual posters.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
TC Electronics RH450 Quasi-Wattage Ratings Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Jarrett
- Start date
- Status
It's all about the "tone of this thread", that's what the Harpy reference is all about, not individual posters.
They absolutely should be able to state their views. Just that some of them take it as a dig against the amp they like....and shelled out coin for. Most folks make it clear the problem is in real vs. claimed numbers and the perpetuation of this. I don't see many saying the amp sounds bad or doesn't work right or anything.
Shuttle uses the B&O 125ASX2
Link Removed
My bad - It is actually 125 watts x 2 at 1% distortion = 250 watts. Of course it does put out 550 watts at 10% distortion so hey lets advertise it as a 600 watt amp! But you know.... they probably added some kind of compression limiting in there to prevent said distortion from making the amp unusable. That's OK when you're Genz. Not so much if you're TCE because THEY LIED.
The Markbass LM2/3 400 watt rating comes from BGM #2
(...or could be #1?)
vin tone
don't really know what's going on between the two of you over this, but you (or rather, your attitude) seem to be an example of the problem.
the fact that some other company has lied (or fudged specs or whatever it is you say they have done... which, by the way, i don't doubt) in no way excuses TCE. they did lie and that's the point of this thread. if someone else has also lied, go get 'em.
i'll back you up 100%. but the point of THIS thread is TCE's lying. did they or didn't they. it seems they did, and you really don't help your cause any by pointing out others who have lied also.
/s/ Dave
don't really know what's going on between the two of you over this, but you (or rather, your attitude) seem to be an example of the problem.
the fact that some other company has lied (or fudged specs or whatever it is you say they have done... which, by the way, i don't doubt) in no way excuses TCE. they did lie and that's the point of this thread. if someone else has also lied, go get 'em.
i'll back you up 100%. but the point of THIS thread is TCE's lying. did they or didn't they. it seems they did, and you really don't help your cause any by pointing out others who have lied also.
/s/ Dave
Not a bad analogy. But I'd twist it a bit and say its more like buying a pound of ground beef and finding out it's got 12 ounces of beef and 4 ounces of filler. It tastes just like ground beef, so it's okay right? Shouldn't be a problem just because it isn't as much ground beef as advertised. Functions like as much ground beef as advertised . . . .
Of course if you wanted to use filler you could get a pound of burger and add a little over 5 ounces of filler and get over 21 ounces of "tastes like beef."
The fusion550 article didn't slip by me either as long as we're on the subject. It hits it's power at 5% dist. 1% is not just low but all over the map.
My point is lets keep it in perspective. People are saying they will never buy TCE products because they lied ... i.e. - will buy other brands because they assume they don't. What they did is not uncommon in the industry and I gave 2 specific exapmles.
Other brands lying are absolutely relevant to this discussion
Hypocracy is what Vin*tone seems to be adressing with his posts. If the problem is companies using misleading specs (lying), then those who are upset about TCE's specs should show the same view toward the other manufacturers that use misleading specs (lied). I have not seen the same level of ire and anger directed toward those other manufacturers (along with TCE). Vin*tone is making a valid point and is being berated for doing so. I totally disagree with the last sentence of your post. The hypocracy he points out is clear.
You have a point there. Numbers are fudged by many it seems. I've owned the LMII, RH50 and Shuttle 6.0.
To my ears...
The LMII is loudest rated 500w - true watts 400(?)
RH450 rated 450w - true watts 236 seemingly not as loud as the LMII but louder than the shuttle 6.0
Shuttle 6.0 rated 600w - true watts -> no idea.
I think part of the reason for the anger against TC is not just because they lied, but because the lie was significant. Its one thing to be off by 100w but off by 200w + seems more than people are willing to tolerate.
To me, as has been said, watts are only part of the picture in total loudness. That said, I dont take the published specs as 'truth' as so many lie. I need to hear the amp perform to gage if its loud enough for me. Of course, if one amp is rated at 200w and another at 800w, I would hope that the later would be at least some what louder.
Hmm. Anything new here? Nope!
have i just walked through the looking glass......
i simply cannot believe there is even one person defending this shameful practice, and yet there are bunches... who not only defend it, but have the audacity to scold those of us who are shocked for daring to even question it.
for TC Electronics defenders...
if you paid for a pound of steak at your grocery store and got home and found they had only given you 10 ounces for the price of a pound, would it be ok with you if they said "Yeah, but it tastes just as good as our competitor's actual pound"? would you want to hear them say "well, everyone else does it?" would it make sense if they said "well, it's hard to measure an actual pound, so we used a virtual pound"?
this is insanely stupid. nobody (as far as I know) has said it's not a good amp. that's not in question. whats in question is the fact that that A) they lied, B) they continue the lie, & C) they conscript their distributors to lie for them (see my earlier post re EBAY)
that aint alright, it aint even a little alright, and to try and say that we who are bitching are somehow the unreasonable ones just blows my mind. please, shop in my store, I have some items i want to sell you------...
the fact that others may or may not engage in similar practices, the fact that it may be somewhat difficult to actually make any meaningful measurements, or any of your other bullsh** excuses are beside the point, and totally irrelevant.... they lied.
do you hear me...THEY LIED, THEY LIED, THEY LIED...
now, anything else you want to discuss about this amp can be saved for another thread... start your own.
i can't help it if i am so ignorant that i cannot catch them on my own. i can't help it if others lie also. i can't help it if you think this amp is so fu***ing wonderful that it makes the sun shine out of TCE's a**. i can't help any of these things, but i tell you this... i will never buy a piece of equipment from TCE.. period, end of story. if ampeg or fender ever did me the same way, well I guess i would feel the same way about them...
if you tell me that absolutely everybody in the whole wide world tells lies in order to sell products, I guess I'll re-think.
until then, I'll simply and naively go on believing the published specs of everyone BUT TC electronics.
ok?
/s/ Dave
vin tone & H I:
well, we are just going to have to agree to disagree about that.
the point of THIS thread is TCE. did they or did they not lie?
if you think other companies have also lied(as you apparently do, and apparently have evidence to back it up) start another thread.
to point it out here is nothing but a red herring, and excusifying for TCE. you are not defending TCE by pointing out that someone else has also lied. even if true, that does not make me want to buy TCE gear.
please start a thread with the names of all companies who have lied, so i can avoid them all. actually, i won't be buying anything else till i can get an ampeg tube amp. (please dear god, don't tell me that THEY lied.) but that is simply not relevant here and if you can't see that, it is because you don't want to see it.
pointing out someone else's bad behavior does not excuse your own... or in this case, your preferred company.
/s/ Dave
well, we are just going to have to agree to disagree about that.
the point of THIS thread is TCE. did they or did they not lie?
if you think other companies have also lied(as you apparently do, and apparently have evidence to back it up) start another thread.
to point it out here is nothing but a red herring, and excusifying for TCE. you are not defending TCE by pointing out that someone else has also lied. even if true, that does not make me want to buy TCE gear.
please start a thread with the names of all companies who have lied, so i can avoid them all. actually, i won't be buying anything else till i can get an ampeg tube amp. (please dear god, don't tell me that THEY lied.) but that is simply not relevant here and if you can't see that, it is because you don't want to see it.
pointing out someone else's bad behavior does not excuse your own... or in this case, your preferred company.
/s/ Dave
I'd be against it if GB and Markbass does it, too. But if you're using BGM #1 for ratings, you can't. A lot of amps got judged lower than their actual ratings in that issue, and they revamped how they do things as a result. Honest mistake and they rectified it. Don't know about Genz but in a later issue they reviewed the MoMark with the 500w class AB power amp like the LMIII, and it hit its mark and went a little over as I recall.
??? I don't own any TCE gear, never have. I am also not cool with any effort to control thread participation (except by the mods of course).
Lonesomedave said:
Wow. That was rude. I apologize for any part I played in getting your dander up. I also thank you for reminding me why I stopped posting here.
This thread is just oozing humanity and understanding! As an owner and player of TC gear, I'm surprised at my lack of anxiety over the watts issue. But I so abhor the lynch mob mentality of this group that I have become a TC defender almost against my own wishes.
The other side of this issue for me is how utterly meaningless I've found watts to be as a predictor of loudness and power. After over 40 years of playing bass guitar, I've finally learned that it's good if I think it's good and it's loud if I think it's loud. Although I'm entertained by BP, GBM, etc, their writers' opinions don't often correlate with mine.
So rail away, but realize that the over-the-top, hotly emotional responses that some of you--especially the non-owners--are expressing are actually creating sympathy and support for the company you're blasting away at!
Hugs & kisses!
Greg
I'm not defending them. I think they lied and that sucks.
I'm saying they didn't set the precedent. And if I cared passionately then I'd start a thread about amp specs honesty. But I don't, so I won't.
For those people who DO care and are soapboxing about this while owning a "600 watt amp" based on the B&O module.... I'd be feeling pretty pissed.
H I-
are you accusing me of trying to control thread participation?
i am sorry, but that is ridiculous. I merely pointed out that this thread is about whether or not TCE lied. to try and talk about other things is to duck the issue.
i'll thank to keep your criticisms of me to what i actually say and do... i am sure you'll have plenty of material. or is that an attempt to control thread participation? alright, hell, criticize me for anything. i am not very good looking either.
/s/ Dave
are you accusing me of trying to control thread participation?
i am sorry, but that is ridiculous. I merely pointed out that this thread is about whether or not TCE lied. to try and talk about other things is to duck the issue.
i'll thank to keep your criticisms of me to what i actually say and do... i am sure you'll have plenty of material. or is that an attempt to control thread participation? alright, hell, criticize me for anything. i am not very good looking either.
/s/ Dave
Has anyone mentioned that the current BGM has an article about APM stating that the RH450 actually outperforms their reference 450 watt amp (in certain situations)? So under certain conditions it notches lower on absolute watts and in others it performs as though it was higher. I don't think it's easy to say TCE lied unless you only read the review and not the APM article. The APM article is actually very complimentary to the amp's performance against their reference gear.
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,518
- 19,955
- Disclosures
- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
This is true. We did test the 500-watt MoMark amp frame in issue #6, and it put out 534 watts continuous (659 burst) at 4 ohms. We have also tested and re-tested several Genz-Benz heads since issue #1, but we have not published any official results yet.
- Status
