Tense rehearsal yesterday

[FullumMusic]

Another on the "Record Rehearsal and listen to what's what" bandwagon.

My guess is anything that doesn't sound like the album versions of songs is throwing the singer off because it's not what she's used to hearing in the song. And while his chord substitutions are musically valid, she ain't wrong. And really, unless you're doing completely unique cover versions where you reimagine the songs in different genres or styles of your own, or your band's schtick is playfully making things quirky and doing clever chord replacements, i'm leaning towards the singer's viewpoint on this. Just play it like it's supposed to be. She's expecting to hear it a certain way. The audience is expecting to hear it a certain way. Hearing it 95% that way there but with artsy chord substitutions is gonna make it just off enough to not vibe right in people's ears. Either change the whole song, or play it relatively straight. (Not to say it needs to be an exact duplicate version indistinguishable from the original. But, you know, in a "just play the song" sorta way.)

But with a rehearsal recording, the singer can go, "that right there. What's going on there with those notes/chords?" And then a discussion can be had where everyone knows where friction is coming from. How you all decide to deal with it is up to youse. But at least you'll all be on the same page for the discussion. $0.02

 

[Hawk620]

You need to acknowledge the singer's musical challenges to have a productive discussion. I've learned this the hard way.

This is where my thinking lands as well. All you had to say is that she lacks any real musical knowledge and I could spot her problem. She sings songs by rote. The same notes and the same phrasing every time. Any variation in the accompaniment and she doesn't know what to do to cope with it. She may have a decent voice but in reality she doesn't actually know how to sing other than in her own narrow limited way.

I worked with a keyboardist for 20 years who loved to throw in little twists and bends to see if I could follow him. He'd use different chord inversions and/or passing chords to create more interest. I'd look over at him and he's have a grin on his face saying here ya' go. See what you can do with this. It was fun. All she needs to do is what I did. Learn to alter the melody and phrasing if necessary to fit. That's how music works.

The problem is I don't know what to suggest you do about it without risking her blowing up and either leaving your band for her more "karaoke" like alternative where they play it the same every time or she insists you all replace the guitarist or that he plays everything "her way". That's your dilemma. Frankly speaking I'd get another singer but as you say she has a following so doing so may hurt you from a business sense.

 

[Formula73]

I’m not currently in a cover band (because I hate it) but I have been and your guitarist is wrong. He needs to step in line.

Play the tunes, make the money. Want to make it his own? Side project.

 

[DWBass]

So..........nobody else in the band hears it? Tell the guitarist to play the right chords.

 

[DWBass]

I’m not currently in a cover band but I have been and your guitarist is wrong. He needs to step in line.

Play the tunes, make the money. Want to make it his own? Side project.

This!! Want to be in a band? Be a good musician!

 

[pepj]

Find another band....

Exactly...
The gtr and singer have major shortcomings by description and its highly likely she's going to leave soon.

 

[Nashrakh]

So, I guess we are just human jukeboxes after all, huh. Playing the same songs the same way over and over... sounds like my definition of hell.

Of course it's hard to tell if the guitarist is "overcomplicating" his lines or voicings without an actual recording, but when a singer is said to have a tin ear, I'd assume that things "not sounding like expected" is akin to some instrumentalist not being able to play to a live band because it does not exactly sound like the recording, some very subtle cues may be different or missing, and it throws them off. Or, in a nutshell: they need to work on their musicality. People like that do not belong in a band yet and need to woodshed. Why does this not also apply to singers?

 

[KenSmithFan]

Band drama.
I'm still waiting to hear about that ONE band that dosent have any.
I'm starting to think they all do.

I’m in five band, two very part time. No drama in any of them. We’re all respectful adults trying to have fun and make music.

 

[KenSmithFan]

Sounds like the guitar player is bored and in his attempt to make his parts more interesting, he’s throwing off the singer.

99.9% of the time people come to see the singer. She’s the draw. She’s got the connections, so he needs to support her.

It’s not about “taking sides” it’s about doing what is best for the band.

 

[pepj]

Mine work ok. Everyone is grown up and experienced. They know the score and it works. Not saying someone won't raise an issue but its never a drama.

 

[gln1955]

So, I guess we are just human jukeboxes after all, huh. Playing the same songs the same way over and over... sounds like my definition of hell.

Of course it's hard to tell if the guitarist is "overcomplicating" his lines or voicings without an actual recording, but when a singer is said to have a tin ear, I'd assume that things "not sounding like expected" is akin to some instrumentalist not being able to play to a live band because it does not exactly sound like the recording, some very subtle cues may be different or missing, and it throws them off. Or, in a nutshell: they need to work on their musicality. People like that do not belong in a band yet and need to woodshed. Why does this not also apply to singers?

This. I'm hearing a lot of criticism of the guitarist without any of us hearing a lick of what he's doing. In a trio playing music that orginally had keys, second guitar, etc, just playing like the record isn't always gonna cut it. What he's doing may be fine and the singer has to step up and work with how this band plays this material.

The scenario makes it sound like she's been OK with what they do for eight years and just now has a problem with the guitar. He isn't the issue, IMO. She's found new friends to play with and will leaving the OP's sandbox soon enough. Kinda sucks if she is their draw, but hopefully an upgrade is in their future.

 

[51PRI]

Just venting, not really a situation where I need advice to manage, but we'll see where it goes.

So my bread-and-butter gig is a cover band, for the last seven or eight years or so. Like a lot of cover bands, we play a variety of stuff, classic rock, pop, a little country, and so on. We don't try to make a big deal out of being somehow "different" from your normal bar band; we just try to do it really well. ONLY songs that go over, no personal vanity picks, and we keep the set list moving rapidly so there's no dead air. It works.

The band is built around a singer who has her strengths and weaknesses. She has a pretty good voice, not quite as good of an ear, and is musically largely untrained. But especially, she's very much a native of the local bar scene, the venues know her and like her, she has lots of friends who come to see her. Bookings come in pretty steadily and gigs are generally decently-paid and -attended. It's a good gig.

We had to replace our original guitarist a couple of years ago and there weren't very plentiful pickings for the range of music we play. Pretty much only one guy who auditioned was up to it. He also has his strengths and weaknesses. He has good chops; doesn't blast excessive volume; and has a real sense of how to arrange set lists to keep the flow going that's our signature. He's also very aware of being the only treble/chordal instrument in the group and thinks a lot about how to fill the space or arrange his part when the song originally had keys or a second guitar. That's important (we're power trio + singer), but not always on the mark; some songs he applies too much gain when it should be clean because he's afraid the single clean guitar will sound "wimpy," or he'll try to keep up a rhythm pattern while also playing a lead. It can wind up overbusy. Sometimes he'll vary the chord, using an inversion or something to change it up. A lot of the time his ideas work; sometimes I'll hear a clam or he'll get off the beat. The drummer is solid as a rock and I'm pretty good at holding my part down, so given the lack of options we found, I'm content to tune the clams out and let him work it out.

The singer, though, tends to pick at him, and really laid into it at last night's rehearsal. She keeps asking if he's out of tune or in the wrong key. He isn't, and she barely knows what those terms really mean (she's the least musically trained of the four of us, remember). What it usually is, is that he varied the chord in some way, brought out an interesting harmony or voicing, and she got thrown off because she wasn't hearing what she was expecting. She's also been sitting in with another band from time to time over the last few months. So this time she wouldn't let it go; she says that singing with the other band is "easy," nothing throws her off, while at our gigs lately she's been having a hard time and feeling like things don't sit right. She backpedaled after saying that, I think realizing it sounded like a threat to quit, and said she had been feeling this way before she started singing with them. But it's out there.

I try to stay out of this. My philosophy is not to tell another musician how to play their instrument unless I know exactly what it is they need to change and how to do it (I sometimes find myself counting out loud along to a recording to show him, or her, what beat a note falls on). If I were him, I wouldn't feel great about coming into rehearsal to get raked over the coals about my playing by someone who doesn't know what I'm trying to do. I do sometimes encourage him to trust his clean tones more, to lay back and leave some space in the song, and to remember to count to four. But I really don't want him to feel like we're piling on.

So there we are. I guess I'm trying to gauge whether I should let it blow over, let the two of them hash it out, take a side, or what. I've been playing with these people a while and we're friendly, not tight friends, and I don't play with them because the songs are my own personal "heart" music. It's that I like to entertain, I like to get people dancing, plus it's nice to get paid, and this band has been a great vehicle for that. I'd really rather not see it implode over this.

It seems to me that the female singer is the draw for the band. If she's looking for a way out of one band to jump into another band, who she is already setting in with, the smart thing to do would be to side with her and maybe get to go along with her when she makes her move.

 

[Petethebassman]

Recording rehearsals is very beneficial for fine-tuning the arrangements and in your case, finding the problem areas in the arrangements. Constructive criticism is good, but there are people who can’t take that. Ages ago in the 1990’s I was in a band that had a guitarist who was VERY easily offended by criticism, even if it was presented in a quite polite way. We recorded rehearsals a lot and I again offered kind advice on what scales would be suitable for a guitar solo on an original song we were working on (his theory knowledge was pretty much nonexistent and didn’t have that great ear either), well, he walked out never to return, much to the relief for all involved.

 

[fdeck]

My view is that if the singer isn't being abusive or toxic, then she's just expressing her needs relative to her abilities. It's also possible that the guitarist isn't playing consistently under the singer because he doesn't remember the "correct" part. This is an adjustment if they're coming from outside of the rock 'n' roll world. For instance a fellow bassist heard one of my rehearsal recordings and told me: "You will never be a good rock bassist because your attention span is too short, and you play something different every time."

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the guitarist to minimize the improvisation during the vocal passages, and maybe save it for the instrumental parts of each song. They might have to jot down some changes or rehearsal notes.

At the same time, singers and soloists will often pay attention to just one instrument to help them follow the form. Usually it's the bassist. I had a very good singer tell me: "Just make sure you play roots on one. I depend on them, because I can never make out what the other players are doing." So, it might also be worth suggesting that the singer should try following you instead of the guitarist during rehearsals. Maybe even practice by having the guitar lay out.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

And…you’re all how old, approximately?

There is no correlation between age and behaviour. In my early 20s I played with a bunch of 40-somethings. At one point, the guitarist's son needed a sub on bass, so I obliged. His band, consisting of four 14-year olds had their band stuff together much better than the dad band did.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

Since I cannot edit my previous response to add to it, I'll do it here. Listening to a recording works great in theory. But people need to be open to hearing the music and not just their parts. IME they either don't listen at all, or listen to their own part and self-validate, which then reinforces their idea of being right.

 

[KenSmithFan]

Since I cannot edit my previous response to add to it, I'll do it here. Listening to a recording works great in theory. But people need to be open to hearing the music and not just their parts. IME they either don't listen at all, or listen to their own part and self-validate, which then reinforces their idea of being right.

+1

There is no correlation between age and behaviour. In my early 20s I played with a bunch of 40-somethings. At one point, the guitarist's son needed a sub on bass, so I obliged. His band, consisting of four 14-year olds had their band stuff together much better than the dad band did.

+1

I’ve played with 60 year olds who act like 6 year olds.

 

[Jefenator]

Over the years I've learned to deal with a certain amount of tension in a group – when necessary. Obviously, the less the better and too much will be a deal-killer. But it's not good to be too thin-skinned, either.
When a band mate makes a stink about something, I can abide it if 1) it's a good-faith critique and not just a power game and 2) if there is indeed a sonic problem that could use fixing.
"Airhead" singers are a long-term pet peeve of mine. But I'll take someone unschooled & vague who maintains discipline over a more accomplished player who can't lead his/her way out of a paper bag.
Another key aspect of productive rehearsal conflict is that resolution should be achievable. (Figure out what sounds bad or is throwing others off, get people to stop doing that, and voila!) Sometimes the right interjection at the right time can really clear things right up – with a bit of diplomacy thrown in for good measure. If that is not possible, it may be a sign that a group is too toxic.
I also find being active with 30 other groups helps maintain a healthy power balance.

 

[BassGuyFL]

100%, I came here to say essentially the same thing. In short: OP, ask the guitarist to compromise. It's unfortunate that his creativity is throwing the singer off, but her limitations have been well known and she won't get over them overnight (if at all). Start by eliminating her biggest pain points, and perhaps work with her so she'll accept some of the other alterations.



Relevant anecdote: many years ago I subbed for a bassist friend for a couple of months while he was doing an orchestra gig. After it was done, I was horrified to receive a call from my friend, who said his band had fired him because they preferred my playing to his. He said "As you know my hero is Duck Dunn, I try to play as simply as possible. I guess they liked your fancy chops". I assured him that I am not a chops guy. It wasn't my band so all I did was try to play the bass lines as close to the record as I could.

And I believe that was the problem: my friend was doing his own thing based on the Duck Dunn thing: altering, simplifying, and perhaps omitting some recognizable bass parts. I'm certain that his playing wasn't wrong, but it wasn't like the record. It's harsh that he lost his gig because of it, maybe other factors were involved. Point is, some don't want "creativity" even if they aren't thrown off by it.

I prefer it when bands take liberties with covers (when cleverly done!), but if a BL wants it just like the record I will not push back. It's funny: I got accustomed to playing during the verses of "All Right Now" because a couple of BLs wanted more phatness there (these bands had only one guitar, no keys). I then did that at a sub gig with a new band, and the BL/LS freaked out: "no bass, no bass!!" So I held up my hands to signal "message received". He may have thought I was being self-indulgent, but I only started doing it because I was asked by other BLs.

There's a couple things at play here. Sometimes with someone not as seasoned they may be lacking a little ability in adapting. She's used to hearing it a certain way and when it's a little different it throws her off. I had joined a band a few years ago and they played a part of this song completely…wrong. When I mentioned it, they said well the singer is used to hearing it that way and I will throw her off if we changed it. She was a good singer and definitely the "draw" of the band but was not as experienced as the rest of us. And it was a song it's been on the radio every day for 40 years so it wasn't an obscure track.

Also I've had the experience many times that people just simply don't pay attention to what the bass is doing. I've subbed for bands and joined projects and gotten the side eye and weird reactions to playing it like the record. I used to sub for a band and their bass player played whatever he wanted whether it was "right" or not and when I would play with them everything would sound weird to them. I even suggested once that if you could record your show and I can learn the way he's doing it (as opposed to the way everybody else plays it) maybe that would be helpful to me.

 

[Bob_Ross]

People in their 70s and 80s can easily behave like children.

Reminds me of Dana Carvey’s line:

“Ever notice how senior citizens have the exact same wants/needs as toddlers? ‘WIPE MY ASS!! I WANNA WATCH CARTOONS!!’ “