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The 125 +/- Hz Cut

L

lowregister

Feb 26, 2009
255
1
Madison, WI
#1
So the other day I was at two different shows, Rebelution a Reggae'ish band and Portugal the Man an alternative rock band.

Both shows I was annoyed by how difficult it was to discern any of subtleties of the bass playing. These are guys who's bass lines just get me going, but I really didn't get that into them because of the muddy, over-powering signal. And this is not limited to just these guys, but pretty much every live show I've been to. I also wear ear-plugs at shows, but the kind like Etymonics that let in the signal fairly unadulterated, but with them in or out it's still too muddy.

My response is that everyone who is playing loudly can benefit from a slight cut--maybe 3-5 Db around 125 Hz. This will affect mostly the A string because of the A's frequency but it clears everything up and lets the fats be fat and the highs shine through. I would also like to add that a cut at 125 Hz cant really be considered as a mid-scoop, which we often see.

I would also recommend a slight boost then of 2-5 Db at 45-75 Hz to give that deep-in-your-ear-drum-rumble.

So what do you guys think, am I crazy? Grab your EQ's and give it a try.
 
#5
I couldn't stand losing that midbass response. I'd rather cut below it, like 60 or 70 hz. I wouldn't call anything below that useless, but I have way less of a use for it than 125. 125 is Cliff Williams tone, so you have to have that ;)
 
#7
i think its mostly the sub bass that bugs me at a live venue. they've always got the 15's just PUMPING out some 40-80 hz and i cant distinguish a single low note. i often write to clubs afterwards and complain. drives me nuts to spend 10-25 dollars to get into a show and then the sound be so terrible.
 
#8
I can understand what you're saying as a bass player.. for a live sound guy (and paying audience member) the current trend is to slot the spectrum.

This kind of depends on the room, staffing and gear. You may be getting the best these three factors can produce.

Bedroom wanking tone.. recording tone.. and live tone are commonly not the same - bass players are notorious for wanting to play in the wrong part of the spectrum.

Now that there's better low end gear (subs, power amps, etc) it's possible to down slot the bass.. even push it lower with a compressor, limiter, octaver etc. Alll of this stuff was very expensive years ago and now is commonly available on many boards etc.

My personal opinion is the gear companies and current trend kind of helped us become more subharmonic. Read Talkbass archives, it's common to have folks ask for "Geddy, Claypool, Flea, King" tone - want to "cut through the mix" and own gear that accentuates the guitar/vocal/key part of the spectrum. Easiest way for sound guys to avoid this pressure is to limit this part of the spectrum.

The reality is the sound crew is running gear for 99.9% of the paying crowd - not the bass players.

Wow.. sorry for the techy speak.

Tim
 
#9
That is quite a fair perspective. I'm curious now to ask some of my non-musician friends what they think of the shows. I'll have to do it as neutrally as possible as to not mentally insinuate "YOU hate 125 Hz!"

I still feel the average concert goer will get their jollies from all the elements that still remains, the drums give you the groove, the singer leads. I mean no one else in the band is really using 125 Hz +/- are they? I stand by at least a 2 Db cut and us concert goers might actually discern some music out of the rumble
 
#10
It's amazing how much low end you can push with clarity out of PA if...you just highpass the subs at 40-50hz. You don't loose a bit of the beef. The PA just stops sounding like that car that's shaking itself apart at the red light.

IMHO
 
#11
I High pass my bands subs sharply at 45hz and get a great sound. Less watts wasted on dance club low end that my rock band doesn't use. Punchy kick and a bass guitar that you can really hear. I actually high pass my bass at around 70hz. It sits in the mix very well and I don't fight the kick drum anymore. I think this is where metallica's sound guy high passes the bass as well. Learned that after doing it myself for about a year.
 
#12
kringle77 said:
I High pass my bands subs sharply at 45hz and get a great sound. Less watts wasted on dance club low end that my rock band doesn't use. Punchy kick and a bass guitar that you can really hear. I actually high pass my bass at around 70hz. It sits in the mix very well and I don't fight the kick drum anymore. I think this is where metallica's sound guy high passes the bass as well. Learned that after doing it myself for about a year.
Click to expand...

Good to know. Can you elaborate how you go about doing that?
 
#15
every sound guy worth his or her salt has a number of tried and true tricks to start with. However, every situation is different, so its important not to become dogmatic about cutting 125 hz or whatever. Different room, different pa speakers, different musicians, etc all contribute.

I generally try to frequency slot as much as possible so somebody lives in each band, although i start with leaving stuff flat and tweak. If i was going to cut a specific frequency i'd rather do it with a global eq for the entire FOH rather than on each channel.
 
#16
Cutting off the bottom to fix a bump is like cutting off your hand because you have a gangrenous finger.

Many bass cabs have a bump around 160Hz. A notch takes care of it. Unfortunately, very few bass heads have the EQ needed to take care of it - or any room problems that are excited by the bass rig.

Most PAs have a big bump around 80Hz. A notch takes care of it.

Only on rare occasion do I find a problem below the ~80 bump.
 
#17
Subscribed. Fascinating topic. I have some great gear but the one thing I can't control is live sound. Room acoustics can be wonderful or terrible...

(I love playing under those portable tents that have no walls, you know the ones? I call them the Cone of Tone because just the right amount of bass gets trapped there to make great sound.)

I play a regular rotation at one of the local casinos where the sound is usually awful. Kinda low mid roar. I've tried all kinds of amps, cabs and combos there to no avail. It only gets good when the more experienced sound guys show up and the lows seem to get lower and the low mids get cut and things sound much better.

Looking forward to learning more about this.
 

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