The basic flaw in the p-bass

[Hopkins]

You guys clearly are buying the dogma over just listening yourselves. I felt the same for years but on all my passives there's a mid (not bass) boost at the end of the tone knob rotation. It comes out of nowhere right at the last. It's why I like the tone knob all the way down more than halfway.

If you get how a Tonestyler works (remember there's no resistor in between so it's like the pot's fully counterclockwise) thus should not be such a stretch.

I know how a Tonestyler works, and it also can not boost any frequency range. Its basically a 16 position rotary switch with different cap values in each position. Each setting bleeds off more high end.

It's not dogma, its fact, a passive tone control can in no way boost any frequency. It can only cut certain frequencies by bleeding them off to ground.

 

[jason the fox]

I don't think it's the electronics causing a perceived drop in lows as much as it is the hardware.

Bridge - I own a Squier P bass and have played a few of the Fender MIM and USA models, and the bridges all have that small-ish plate with five screws. If you look on the Badass, Schaller, and several other bridges, they have a BIG mounting plate compared to the stock Fender bridges. I also got a Kramer Striker P/J recently with the original Schaller bridge, and it is bigger than the stock Fender bridges are.

Pickup - Design and placement. Again, to compare a Squier and Kramer, The Squier has "Duncan Designed" pickups that are about 10K ohms. I haven't measured the Kramer's p-ups, but they are the original Spectors. The placement I feel has a lot to do with it too--on the Kramer, the pickup is actually mounted a little closer to the neck than on a Squier/Fender, enough that a pickguard from a regular P-bass won't fit. I never turn the tone knobs down, and even with the P-pickup by itself, it has more lows than the Squier does by a long shot. (And they're both made from what most people would consider crappy tone woods, the Squier being made from Agathis, the Kramer from plywood) Even on the Squier/Fender P/J basses, the P-pickup is still almost dead-on in the middle. I mean, I don't know how to describe it technically, but as you move the pickup further toward the bridge, the more trebley the sound will get.

Just my uneducated two cents. If you think the tone knobs are killing your bass, try bypassing them by soldering your pickups straight to the jack.

You're right. Uneducated or not lol.

As far as pickup placement - the closer to the bridge you get, the tighter the arc of vibration - and I don't know the scientific reasoning, but it yields a more trebley tone. Or the further from the bridge you go, the wider the arc of vibration - so in addition to increased output, you get an increase in the fat/full response - or less treble. Again - I don't know the scientific reasoning behind it, but it's common knowledge.

Best example of different tone with pickup placement I can think of is the 3 pick ups (and pickup positions 1/3/5) on a Fender Stratocaster.

 

[Scott in Dallas]

My P doesn't have a treble knob. Problem solved.

 

[jason the fox]

It's not dogma, its fact, a passive tone control can in no way boost any frequency. It can only cut certain frequencies by bleeding them off to ground.

I understand what thiocyclist is saying and I kind of agree with his point - but that deserve's another Bingo lol.

 

[isher1992]

You're right. Uneducated or not lol.

As far as pickup placement - the closer to the bridge you get, the tighter the arc of vibration - and I don't know the scientific reasoning, but it yields a more trebley tone. Or the further from the bridge you go, the wider the arc of vibration - so in addition to increased output, you get an increase in the fat/full response - or less treble. Again - I don't know the scientific reasoning behind it, but it's common knowledge.

Best example of different tone with pickup placement I can think of is the 3 pick ups (and pickup positions 1/3/5) on a Fender Stratocaster.

Which is why a lot of the time, P pickups will overpower J pickups in a P/J configuration. Which has been the case with the Squier P/J I used to have and the Kramer I have now.

Another thing to try is try plucking the string in a different location.

I'm pretty sure the pickup has a lot to do with it even more so than other hardware, because I've played a '77 P-bass with a Bartolini pickup, and thought it had plenty of lows.

 

[thiocyclist]

I know how a Tonestyler works, and it also can not boost any frequency range. Its basically a 16 position rotary switch with different cap values in each position. Each setting bleeds off more high end.

It's not dogma, its fact, a passive tone control can in no way boost any frequency. It can only cut certain frequencies by bleeding them off to ground.

It retunes the resonant frequency and that's why you can hear a boost when the resistance between the cap and circuit is minimal. I'll stop believing it when I stop hearing it. And I thought like you did for years until a year or two ago I began hearing this.

 

[Hopkins]

It retunes the resonant frequency and that's why you can hear a boost when the resistance between the cap and circuit is minimal. I'll stop believing it when I stop hearing it. And I thought like you did for years until a year or two ago I began hearing this.

I have never heard any boost in lows or mids by rolling down the tone knob on any passive bass. But then again, I don't like choking the life out of my bass tone.

 

[thiocyclist]

I have never heard any boost in lows or mids by rolling down the tone knob on any passive bass. But then again, I don't like choking the life out of my bass tone.

It doesn't mean you can't try it and see.

I learned of the "boost"/retuning because I always was amazed how cool it sounded when I rolled the tone all the way down--and only all the way, not 50%, not even 95%--on the *bridge* pickup of my bass. The voice just totally changed compared to any other setting (through that entire "100%" range). Years later as I was sweeping the tone knob back and forth one night I heard it "pop" out during a sustained note, over and over again, as I hit the bottom of the sweep. It's kind of a similar effect to when you get to near the top of the sweep and the brightness goes from moderate to really bright. All of the sudden the tone goes from dark to dark with something more, what I would define as a sudden "pop" in the low mid range that is missing as soon as you start turning the control back clockwise. If you never go down this far you'll never hear it. And it took me years to notice.

 

[thiocyclist]

I just got my bass out and tried it again to be sure I wasn't nuts. Nope, still there--if the whole rotation is 270 degrees it seems to happen once you hit the last 30 of that rotation. I can play a harmonic and sustain it while sweeping the knob and you can hear the frequency suddenly shift and everything gets noticeably louder right at that point.

 

[isher1992]

I just got my bass out and tried it again to be sure I wasn't nuts. Nope, still there--if the whole rotation is 270 degrees it seems to happen once you hit the last 30 of that rotation. I can play a harmonic and sustain it while sweeping the knob and you can hear the frequency suddenly shift and everything gets noticeably louder right at that point.

I don't hear it. I don't even hear the bass changing, I just hear more treble being added.

 

[Hopkins]

It doesn't mean you can't try it and see.

I learned of the "boost"/retuning because I always was amazed how cool it sounded when I rolled the tone all the way down--and only all the way, not 50%, not even 95%--on the *bridge* pickup of my bass. The voice just totally changed compared to any other setting (through that entire "100%" range). Years later as I was sweeping the tone knob back and forth one night I heard it "pop" out during a sustained note, over and over again, as I hit the bottom of the sweep. It's kind of a similar effect to when you get to near the top of the sweep and the brightness goes from moderate to really bright. All of the sudden the tone goes from dark to dark with something more, what I would define as a sudden "pop" in the low mid range that is missing as soon as you start turning the control back clockwise. If you never go down this far you'll never hear it. And it took me years to notice.

Tried it, didn't hear anything.

 

[thiocyclist]

Another experiment: playing along with Blur's "Song 2" I was able to hear myself louder in the mix better with the tone all the way down than at any other point, due to the aforementioned effect.

I don't think P Basses lack low end but stuff like this could go to explaining the myth and misperceptions people have.

EDIT: Two have tried it and heard nothing--are my basses magic? I doubt it. Try holding a harmonic and sweeping the knob, if it doesn't get louder at the bottom of the sweep then there is something specifically different between our basses we need to account for.

I don't hear it. I don't even hear the bass changing, I just hear more treble being added.

Are you doing it right? It gets louder at the bottom end of the sweep. The overall tone doesn't really change but there's a volume increase that I attribute to mids.

 

[isher1992]

Another experiment: playing along with Blur's "Song 2" I was able to hear myself louder in the mix better with the tone all the way down than at any other point, due to the aforementioned effect.

I don't think P Basses lack low end but stuff like this could go to explaining the myth and misperceptions people have.

EDIT: Two have tried it and heard nothing--are my basses magic? I doubt it. Try holding a harmonic and sweeping the knob, if it doesn't get louder at the bottom of the sweep then there is something specifically different between our basses we need to account for.

Pot taper, pot value, capacitor, tolerances, resonant frequency of pickups are things that come to mind. I use 500K Alpha's with 10% tolerance, with a 0.022uF capcitor. Linear taper on tone.

 

[jason the fox]

Another experiment: playing along with Blur's "Song 2" I was able to hear myself louder in the mix better with the tone all the way down than at any other point, due to the aforementioned effect.

I don't think P Basses lack low end but stuff like this could go to explaining the myth and misperceptions people have.

EDIT: Two have tried it and heard nothing--are my basses magic? I doubt it. Try holding a harmonic and sweeping the knob, if it doesn't get louder at the bottom of the sweep then there is something specifically different between our basses we need to account for.

Exactly - depends on the application. Sometimes a particular tone (or even lack of) is going to end up coming out more forward in a given mix. I still say that there's no boost - but at the same time, I do know that certain frequencies will occupy a certain spot in the tonal spectrum - so depending on the nature of the song, rolling back on your tone control might find you that pocket.

 

[thiocyclist]

I just recorded it, naked with no effects. It's really dang obvious. I need to find a way to upload it.

 

[thiocyclist]

Exactly - depends on the application. Sometimes a particular tone (or even lack of) is going to end up coming out more forward in a given mix. I still say that there's no boost - but at the same time, I do know that certain frequencies will occupy a certain spot in the tonal spectrum - so depending on the nature of the song, rolling back on your tone control might find you that pocket.

No, it's a boost. Louder is louder. Sorry.

 

[jason the fox]

No, it's a boost. Louder is louder. Sorry.

I dunno man.. To be honest, I've never specifically listened for that. But then again, it's not something that's ever made itself known either. Maybe tomorrow I'll give it a try and listen for it. Still skeptical, but I'll listen for it.

 

[thiocyclist]

https://soundcloud.com/thiocyclist/tone-knob-sweep-song-2

What you hear first is me sweeping the knob, then I do a couple versions of Song 2 on either side of the sweep. Recorded in one take, no effects, no nothing. If you can't hear it you're deaf!

 

[isher1992]

No, it's a boost. Louder is louder. Sorry.

The ear is deceiving. Try using a linear taper pot for volume, and you'll see what I mean. There's a reason volume knobs use the logarithmic taper, and that's because your ear will deceive you about perceived volume.

You could also check the pot with a DVOM and see if there's a strange kink in your taper that would make it seem louder at that spot. However, if it's a passive circuit, there is no way anything can be boosted at all. Only cut, making room for other frequencies. It could be that in that spot, certain frequencies are lower, which makes the frequencies you hear sound "louder," even though they are not.

EDIT: I hear what you're talking about on that harmonic, but I don't hear it on the actual song. It sounds like you rolled off some of the highs and that's about it.

 

[thiocyclist]

Listen to my file. I understand thinking it could be a funky part but my basses all seem to do this.