the bebensee arrives today!!!!!!

[Lokire]

So, if you figure that the normal guy works 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year (I factored in a 2 week vacation) then over 4 years that's 8000 hours in which to finish this bass. Now, the bass is nice but not 8000 hours nice. And if you divide 8000 hours into $4K you come up with an hourly rate of $0.50 per hour.

No wonder Ken is complaining about not making money...

Ken, here's an idea. SPEED UP. Your hourly rate will skyrocket if you do.

That's what I was thinking too. Though you have to factor in that Ken is working on more basses during that time, so he certainly isn't spending all 8000 hours on this bass. I don't know (but would like to!) how many basses Ken works on at once.

But yes, he would definitely be making a better living if he could build basses at a more reasonable rate.

 

[fourstringdrums]

Jack Read once told me that when he was building basses he basically got paid minimum wage, and that was from making basses that cost half the price and took not even a year to complete compared to Ken's basses. So I can imagine how Ken would be broke if he took 4 years to complete something, regardless of how much he charged. If he's operating his business at a loss, that's his problem, not the customer's, and he shouldn't take any of his problems regarding the job whether it be financially or physically demanding out on the customer.

 

[west*coast*bass]

Jack Read once told me that when he was building basses he basically got paid minimum wage, and that was from making basses that cost half the price and took not even a year to complete compared to Ken's basses. So I can imagine how Ken would be broke if he took 4 years to complete something, regardless of how much he charged. If he's operating his business at a loss, that's his problem, not the customer's, and he shouldn't take any of his problems regarding the job whether it be financially or physically demanding out on the customer.

Well put.

 

[john turner]

Wild thread.

Violation of any TB rules?

JB

how? i see a thread started by a customer happy about the arrival of a new instrument, only to be disappointed with the product.

 

[KayCee]

So I can imagine how Ken would be broke if he took 4 years to complete something, regardless of how much he charged.

In spite of the fact that it took 4 years to deliver the bass, there's no evidence that Bebensee actually spent more time working on this bass than do the luthiers that complete an instrument in six months. For all we know, he didn't even seriously look at completing Tribal's bass until two months prior to delivery. There's also a lack of craftsmanship in some areas of Tribal's bass, like the back plate, which suggest it was built in a hurry.

I also seriously doubt that anyone as swamped with orders as Mr. Bebensee is actually losing money on each order, as he claims.

 

[john turner]

Thank you all for supporting Todd through all of this. I sincerely wish him the best and am sorry that his bass wasn’t what he wanted. I did make the bass with love and care. I did make that bass as he originally specified, with in reason. Though, what he asked for, was either not what he wanted or not clearly communicated. There are lots of exaggerations about what was said. However, I am only human. Bottom line, the bass plays great and sounds great.

I did offer to either sell the bass or help Todd sell the bass. I would do more if I could. My responses to his emails which he posted selectively edited parts of, were in response to an unrealistic ultimatum and how he threatened me. However, I don’t have the money to refund. It cost more to produce these instruments than I have charged for them. Still I have always done the best I possibly can.

With out wasting more time that will keep other people waiting longer for their instruments, I offered to post his bass for sale on my web site. I told him he could hold on to the bass while I found a player who would buy the bass from him.

The reasons all my orders take so long to build are due to all the extreme customizations that have been asked for as well as a long list of orders. I used to work 70 to 80 hours per week. I am now working about 40 to 50 hours per week on instrument orders including time communicating with all my customers. Many people have asked for fantastic designs, and I have done the best to produce instruments that actually play good.


Some Facts you may like to know:

· for one of the latest design changes he sent this image and said this:
“If you want on the inlay to just do 2 paws prints mirroring each other (like the attached basses inlay [but adding] a roman numeral I next to them - and not the name that’s OK too.”
· Todd asked for a 4 way adjustable bridge. Since I can only work with 3 dimensions, I let him know and I made the bridge 3 way adjustable. This requires more metal than wood. The bridge is both wood and metal and adjustable in 3 directions. The bridge can be changed to any other bridge design including a wood bridge which is not as adjustable in the same way.
· On the order form Todd sent to me, he specifies for the body wood to be wenge or flamed maple
· Todd knew that I have only offered oil finishes for the past 10 years. He even said in a post to TB last year, that he would probably refinish the bass with poly after he got the bass Finishes dry slower with oily wood such as Zircote and Cocobolo, it is dry now. The pickup placement wasn’t specified on the order form. or on the drawing that he actually sent me.
· On the order form Todd specified to use string gauged .105” to .035”
· Time to complete the bass was 3 years and 3 months. my web site states the average delivery time for custom orders is 30 months. It takes longer for carvings, inlays and intricate custom work.. Todd’s order was definitely more complicated than average.
· Price paid for the bass $4000 he also paid $125 for the Zircote (not $200) and $175 for overnight shipping.
· I do respond to emails [email protected]

hmm. well, here's the rest of the story. i appreciate the effort to come here and clear things up. perhaps this thread can change into more of a 2-way discussion, so i hope you can continue to participate.

however. i am also very experienced in the realm of custom bass orders. between conklin, ritter and lowend jazz/benevente, i have a dozen custom built instruments. none took this long to build, by a long shot, and none were so divergent from my original ideas and designs.

some folks are not cut out to build custom instruments. they are good folks, they have creative designs, a grasp on the manufacturing side of the instrument, the understand the physics and they are craftsmen, but they still don't belong building custom instruments, for the simple reason that they cannot handle when someone is not happy with their product.

by way of example... not a bass, but a computer. i built this...

Link Removed

this summer. i custom built the water cooling solutions (2 of em) along with customized water blocks for the video cards(which did not otherwise even exist for sale yet) and custom built the case. i've received emails about it from folks wanting me to build them one, but i flatly refused. i could easily make a thousand bucks a piece building them, but i don't want to deal with the customer issues.

you mention in the email listed that tribal's instrument designs "kept changing". how? in what way? and most importantly, how did this impact the build time of over 3 years?

oh, and by the way, this took bill conklin and phil groschy less than 6 months from initial order to finished product (and no, conklin does not use any cnc machines, nor do they outsource anything. they used lane poor pickups, seymour duncan electronics and abm bridges and keys and made everything else) :

i talk about the process of ordering it and interacting with bill and his ideas here...

Invalid Link Removed

sorta hard to rationalize 3+ years given that. unless, of course, bill conklin -is- in fact god, as i've always suspected .

 

[Lokire]

In spite of the fact that it took 4 years to deliver the bass, there's no evidence that Bebensee actually spent more time working on this bass than do the luthiers that complete an instrument in six months. For all we know, he didn't even seriously look at completing Tribal's bass until two months prior to delivery. There's also a lack of craftsmanship in some areas of Tribal's bass, like the back plate, which suggest it was built in a hurry.

I also seriously doubt that anyone as swamped with orders as Mr. Bebensee is actually losing money on each order, as he claims.

That's another big point. It seems to me like Ken put the roughly shaped body and neck together earlier on (when did tribal get those initial pics?) and then just sat on it for years. Only to hastily put things together in the last months when Tribal started really bugging him about it.

Again, I really want to know how many actual completed instruments Ken puts out in a year. Beacuse I've only ever seen a few KBs in total that aren't on his website (which hasn't had any new basses added since I first saw it 5-6 years ago). The one that "pnchad" here has, the one that was briefly for sale on the KB website, and Tribals bass.

 

[niomosy]

by way of example... not a bass, but a computer. i built this...

Link Removed

this summer. i custom built the water cooling solutions (2 of em) along with customized water blocks for the video cards(which did not otherwise even exist for sale yet) and custom built the case. i've received emails about it from folks wanting me to build them one, but i flatly refused. i could easily make a thousand bucks a piece building them, but i don't want to deal with the customer issues.

Damn, that thing looks insane! Not exactly something you're going to be taking to LAN parties unless you're hosting, though

Back on topic, it does seem like Ken's got production issues if build times are that long. Even if half that wait is due to orders, why not do like Ritter and stop accepting orders while you catch up on current production? It's definitely fishy.

 

[fourstringdrums]

Damn, that thing looks insane! Not exactly something you're going to be taking to LAN parties unless you're hosting, though

Back on topic, it does seem like Ken's got production issues if build times are that long. Even if half that wait is due to orders, why not do like Ritter and stop accepting orders while you catch up on current production? It's definitely fishy.

Carey Nordstrand is doing the same thing I believe, putting custom orders on hold.

 

[Ed Goode]

Wow, after checking back into this thread with some of the more recent posts, including KB's, here's what I don't understand:

Assuming that KB intends to keep building basses, why would he want to deliberately alienate himself from a potential client base of 50,000+ bassists? That just doesn't make any business sense to me ....

KB states in a response to Tribal that he has over 140 happy customers, so I would assume that he has built at least 140 basses. I have no idea how long he has been building basses, but that seems to be a reasonable output for someone that is a one-person business. So, unless he has been building for a long time, I would guess that he puts out about 20 basses a year, +/- a few (could be very wrong, though). So, assuming my wild hypothesis is not completely out of whack, why would you take a deposit for a bass with a 30 month lead time? (unless you need the money really bad) Why not a waiting list like many of his peers?

And if you intend to keep building basses, and if you have an output of 20 (+/- hypothetically) basses, why wouldn't you give this cat his money back when it is clear that 1) Tribal is a dissatisfied customer, 2)Tribal has an awful lot of documents to support his position, and 3) p*ssing off a potential client base of 50,000+ will surely cause you to lose even more business???

There has to be more to KB's side of this than we are aware of. Not meaning to dis Tribal here, he clearly has his position well supported and documented and is feeling the direct consequences of KB's failure, but there just has to be more to this from KB's side. It just doesn't make sense to me ...

 

[john turner]

Damn, that thing looks insane! Not exactly something you're going to be taking to LAN parties unless you're hosting, though

heh it's smaller than my bass amp .

 

[KayCee]

And if you intend to keep building basses, and if you have an output of 20 (+/- hypothetically) basses, why wouldn't you give this cat his money back when it is clear that 1) Tribal is a dissatisfied customer, 2)Tribal has an awful lot of documents to support his position, and 3) p*ssing off a potential client base of 50,000+ will surely cause you to lose even more business???

+1

And, if Bebensee is so popular as to be swamped with orders, he shouldn't have any problem selling a "stock" bass...assuming that it really is the great bass that he says it is.

On the other hand, if it's a subpar instrument that he'd have trouble selling, Tribal should be refunded his money anyway.

At the very least, he should offer to take back the bass, strip it of the electronics and hardware, and build Tribal a new bass within a reasonable time frame (9-12 months at most) using those parts.

 

[realdeal]

I met and spoke briefly-real briefly- with Ken Bebensee a few years back at the (former) LA Bass Exchange.
This post is in no way intended to judge what happened here; it's just a comment.

KB started out making furniture- He's an artist; a very creative person, and a .....free spirit, for want of a better term.

Unfortunately, those traits don't always mesh well with being in business. Remember, this doesn't condone what happened, it just may explain it a little better.

I once visited an artist, a painter, at a studio open-house.
I had no idea who he was, but I dug his work, and told him so.
He asked me which painting I liked best, and I told him. He then said "Take it, I want you to have it".
At that point his Girlfriend walked in the studio, saw what was going on, and asked if I was interested in buying some of
his work...
Basically, she froze his giving me the painting.
I found out later his paintings were exhibited throughout the world, and sold for $10,000 and up....
-5 more minutes and I woulda had it!!

Anyway- again, I dont mean to dismiss the issues here; but I feel that there are some otherwise very talented Artists that just aren't built for the real world...
Matter of fact, I've played music with quite a few of 'em.

 

[niomosy]

heh it's smaller than my bass amp .

True. I was just spoiled by being able to take my laptop to LAN parties Still, I wouldn't want to deal with packing that yellow thing along with the case and all, then getting it all set up

 

[The Penguin]

I also seriously doubt that anyone as swamped with orders as Mr. Bebensee is actually losing money on each order, as he claims.

It seems odd but many luthiers make little to no money from custom instruments. When Tobias was in Hollywood he ran his numbers and found he was actually losing money making instruments and was profiting only from repair work which in turn subsidized the basses.

For a hypothetical, if Ken makes 20 basses a year (less than 3 weeks total build time each so that number is way too high) at $4k that's a yearly gross of $80k, subtract expenses like rent, utilities, insurance and then tax the rest at a self employment rate and he'd be lucky to make 20 or 30 grand a year with no benefits.

 

[KayCee]

It seems odd but many luthiers make little to no money from custom instruments. When Tobias was in Hollywood he ran his numbers and found he was actually losing money making instruments and was profiting only from repair work which in turn subsidized the basses.

For a hypothetical, if Ken makes 20 basses a year (less than 3 weeks total build time each so that number is way too high) at $4k that's a yearly gross of $80k, subtract expenses like rent, utilities, insurance and then tax the rest at a self employment rate and he'd be lucky to make 20 or 30 grand a year with no benefits.

Fair enough. I've never seen his books, so obviously we don't know for sure.

I don't know about Tobias, but if Bebensee bases his calculations on a four-year build time per instrument, it's ridiculous. If in fact he's working like a slave for that long to build each bass, he'd be justified in raising his price to $200,000.00 per instrument.

 

[The Penguin]

I'm not defending Ken, I've known his work from I think the early '90's and I'd never buy one.

Just trying to point out how little money luthiers make. I used to build and it's a pet peeve of mine.

 

[wilser]

I'm not defending Ken, I've known his work from I think the early '90's and I'd never buy one.

Just trying to point out how little money luthiers make. I used to build and it's a pet peeve of mine.

although I can probably side with Todd on this one, I have to say that you are right in that luthiers, especially one man operations like Ken's, don't make much money. This is exactly why I don't see myself building full time anytime soon and don't see myself taking more orders than I can handle probably 1 at a time every 3-4 months.

the numbers some guy here ran are not that accurate, .50hr or so. But it's probably not enough to make even a half decent living out of.

Nevertheless, if Todd was making changes throughout the build, Ken should have let him know right away if it was possible or not, and what were the changes he was willing to perform. As I said before, Ken was one of my most admired builders and he broke my heart.

 

[PilbaraBass]

although I can probably side with Todd on this one, I have to say that you are right in that luthiers, especially one man operations like Ken's, don't make much money. This is exactly why I don't see myself building full time anytime soon and don't see myself taking more orders than I can handle probably 1 at a time every 3-4 months.

the numbers some guy here ran are not that accurate, .50hr or so. But it's probably not enough to make even a half decent living out of.

Nevertheless, if Todd was making changes throughout the build, Ken should have let him know right away if it was possible or not, and what were the changes he was willing to perform. As I said before, Ken was one of my most admired builders and he broke my heart.

when good builders go bad, it's usually one thing:



....PRIDE

 

[tribal3140]

timeline,
Just to clear that up
sent the check late april/early may 2003, deposited a month later
(I keep all carbon copies of checks and still have it!

I looked through the 11 emails I have and
he got my ziricote (already kiln dried 1" thick) on or before nov 10th 2003!

second marker
this attached pic was sent to me after threatening him
on july 15 2005.
which its all cut and edge rounded, just needed the hardware/elecs and thats it.

got pics in june 2006 of the body finished and its oiled.
so basically he did nothing that 12 month period.

the as it was asserted it was thrown together between 7/06 and 10/06
which in all factuality is any rush for the hardware/elecs, that literally can be done in a weekend easily!

I got the bass oct 1 2006.
fact!

just for clarity of the timeline issue.

and the changes were

I wanted a basslines pup he said literally "they wont send me one" so that was him changing it to bart
I changed to the "world famous KB wood and metal bridge"
and the inlay was changed from front to back but he still missed the roman numeral one.
those literally and seriously were the only 3 changes!
and one he made which probably isnt even the truth he had alluded to a deal with bartolini and told me about 2 buckers at the begininng. why would basslines not send a pickup over 3.5-4 years??
there were ZERO other changes.
the pup config was DRAWN on the original 1:1 scale drawing (i think its on page 7)
so ??????????????????????????
it was always the same body shape, always the same 5 string, always , cocobolo/ziricote (and wenge or maple= irrelevant) what else changed???


I doubt however ken will come back again to continue in this thread.