theres a charity which started up here on talkbass,. one of the mikes did it... maybe mikebass? or was it big mike w....
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the bebensee arrives today!!!!!!
- Thread starter tribal3140
- Start date
lowtide
Commercial User
I know that, even though I may want to help you out, I would not want to own a Bebensee for the turd that he is.
SMASH said:
+1
I'll be very surprised if this idea works in reality.
On the other hand, suppose that it DID work? It seems to me that folks would be motivated to hold a raffle on EVERY bass sale from that moment on if they thought that the full price (or more!) could be realised with this sales technique.
At any rate, the only raffle that makes sense to me is one in which Bebensee buys all of the tickets!
no raffle, no lottery.
done.
bass is for sale, I going to just take it in the ass on this one.
I was going to close the thread but I'll leave it open for all to see.
done.
bass is for sale, I going to just take it in the ass on this one.
I was going to close the thread but I'll leave it open for all to see.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
tribal3140 said:
how arrogant. i would -never- deal with such a complete tool. then again, i'm not too crazy about his "designs" so i guess there's no danger of me ever wanting anything from him.
Thank you all for supporting Todd through all of this. I sincerely wish him the best and am sorry that his bass wasnt what he wanted. I did make the bass with love and care. I did make that bass as he originally specified, with in reason. Though, what he asked for, was either not what he wanted or not clearly communicated. There are lots of exaggerations about what was said. However, I am only human. Bottom line, the bass plays great and sounds great.
I did offer to either sell the bass or help Todd sell the bass. I would do more if I could. My responses to his emails which he posted selectively edited parts of, were in response to an unrealistic ultimatum and how he threatened me. However, I dont have the money to refund. It cost more to produce these instruments than I have charged for them. Still I have always done the best I possibly can.
With out wasting more time that will keep other people waiting longer for their instruments, I offered to post his bass for sale on my web site. I told him he could hold on to the bass while I found a player who would buy the bass from him.
The reasons all my orders take so long to build are due to all the extreme customizations that have been asked for as well as a long list of orders. I used to work 70 to 80 hours per week. I am now working about 40 to 50 hours per week on instrument orders including time communicating with all my customers. Many people have asked for fantastic designs, and I have done the best to produce instruments that actually play good.
Some Facts you may like to know:
· for one of the latest design changes he sent this image and said this:
If you want on the inlay to just do 2 paws prints mirroring each other (like the attached basses inlay [but adding] a roman numeral I next to them - and not the name thats OK too.
· Todd asked for a 4 way adjustable bridge. Since I can only work with 3 dimensions, I let him know and I made the bridge 3 way adjustable. This requires more metal than wood. The bridge is both wood and metal and adjustable in 3 directions. The bridge can be changed to any other bridge design including a wood bridge which is not as adjustable in the same way.
· On the order form Todd sent to me, he specifies for the body wood to be wenge or flamed maple
· Todd knew that I have only offered oil finishes for the past 10 years. He even said in a post to TB last year, that he would probably refinish the bass with poly after he got the bass Finishes dry slower with oily wood such as Zircote and Cocobolo, it is dry now. The pickup placement wasnt specified on the order form. or on the drawing that he actually sent me.
· On the order form Todd specified to use string gauged .105 to .035
· Time to complete the bass was 3 years and 3 months. my web site states the average delivery time for custom orders is 30 months. It takes longer for carvings, inlays and intricate custom work.. Todds order was definitely more complicated than average.
· Price paid for the bass $4000 he also paid $125 for the Zircote (not $200) and $175 for overnight shipping.
· I do respond to emails [email protected]
I did offer to either sell the bass or help Todd sell the bass. I would do more if I could. My responses to his emails which he posted selectively edited parts of, were in response to an unrealistic ultimatum and how he threatened me. However, I dont have the money to refund. It cost more to produce these instruments than I have charged for them. Still I have always done the best I possibly can.
With out wasting more time that will keep other people waiting longer for their instruments, I offered to post his bass for sale on my web site. I told him he could hold on to the bass while I found a player who would buy the bass from him.
The reasons all my orders take so long to build are due to all the extreme customizations that have been asked for as well as a long list of orders. I used to work 70 to 80 hours per week. I am now working about 40 to 50 hours per week on instrument orders including time communicating with all my customers. Many people have asked for fantastic designs, and I have done the best to produce instruments that actually play good.
Some Facts you may like to know:
· for one of the latest design changes he sent this image and said this:
If you want on the inlay to just do 2 paws prints mirroring each other (like the attached basses inlay [but adding] a roman numeral I next to them - and not the name thats OK too.
· Todd asked for a 4 way adjustable bridge. Since I can only work with 3 dimensions, I let him know and I made the bridge 3 way adjustable. This requires more metal than wood. The bridge is both wood and metal and adjustable in 3 directions. The bridge can be changed to any other bridge design including a wood bridge which is not as adjustable in the same way.
· On the order form Todd sent to me, he specifies for the body wood to be wenge or flamed maple
· Todd knew that I have only offered oil finishes for the past 10 years. He even said in a post to TB last year, that he would probably refinish the bass with poly after he got the bass Finishes dry slower with oily wood such as Zircote and Cocobolo, it is dry now. The pickup placement wasnt specified on the order form. or on the drawing that he actually sent me.
· On the order form Todd specified to use string gauged .105 to .035
· Time to complete the bass was 3 years and 3 months. my web site states the average delivery time for custom orders is 30 months. It takes longer for carvings, inlays and intricate custom work.. Todds order was definitely more complicated than average.
· Price paid for the bass $4000 he also paid $125 for the Zircote (not $200) and $175 for overnight shipping.
· I do respond to emails [email protected]
Attachments
thanks for coming forward Ken, beyond all the drama (I've only read some... and don't know enough to take sides), I do like the look of the bass.
Interesting. Thanks for chiming in Ken.
But I still wonder why it takes so long to build, even a complex bass like this? How many basses are you currently working on? I can see having a long wait time, but to take so long from when the build started...it just seems like you're working on too many bass at the same time maybe?
"Though, what he asked for, was either not what he wanted or not clearly communicated."
What do you mean what he asked for was not what he wanted? How does that work?
But I still wonder why it takes so long to build, even a complex bass like this? How many basses are you currently working on? I can see having a long wait time, but to take so long from when the build started...it just seems like you're working on too many bass at the same time maybe?
"Though, what he asked for, was either not what he wanted or not clearly communicated."
What do you mean what he asked for was not what he wanted? How does that work?
+1 what happened to the customers always rightLokire said:What do you mean what he asked for was not what he wanted? How does that work?
Ken, not for nothing but the bass you built the guy does not look like something that should have been a final product.
Lokire said:
Hmm, what the statement is saying seems clear enough to me...
Either:
(1) the customer asked for something, it was delivered, and the customer wasn't happy with what was requested/delivered
-or-
(2) the customer asked for something and ken didn't understand the request due to clarity issues, and consequently delivered something the customer didn't want
I expect the customer has a different perspective, of course.
CaptainWally said:
Even assuming Ken is up to his armpits in basses, hundreds, thousands of them, explaining the 30 month + wait...he had four years to iron things out to both of their satisfaction. Clarity issues should be null and void with that kind of time.
- Mar 22, 2005
- 3,718
- 6
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Lakland Basses
Brendan said:
+1
If he wasn't clear on certain specs, why not just ask the customer? Doesn't seem like rocket science to me.
There should be no issues with clarity of what the customer wants. If there is something that you are unclear about, regarding a customers order, then it is your responsibility to contact the person and find out exactly what they had in mind. There's no excuse for doing things wrong like what seems to have happened here.
It seems to me like you have a problem with organization, and when a bass like this is being build over 3-4 years, that's something you have to keep track of very carefully. Every e-mail, letter, picture, and phone call regarding the bass should be saved to be reffered to later. And ANY change in the specs that takes place at any time during the construction (within reason of course, like changing a spec before its already been done) should be made note of on some sort of "master spec sheet". Obviously, some changes were made, so referring to the original spec sheet, if you hadn't notated the changes on it, is careless.
Also, the only reason I can see that the basses you make would cost more than you charge is because of the rediculously long amount of time it takes to make them (considering you are being paid for your labor). Which by my thought, NO bass should be in construction that long in the first place. I've seen more intricate/complex basses (even my Stambaugh) be completed in much, much less time. If the actual build time for a bass like this is 30-40 months, then you should be working on smaller batches of basses, and just have a longer waiting list. That way a smaller number of basses could get more individual attention.
I don't know how exactly you build basses, but I just don't see why it should take that long when TONS of other luthiers do simmilarly amazing work in such a shorter amount of time.
Tell me, what exactly makes Tribal's bass so complicated anyways? Aside from the scroll, and the (small) inlay, it doesn't seem especially complex
It seems to me like you have a problem with organization, and when a bass like this is being build over 3-4 years, that's something you have to keep track of very carefully. Every e-mail, letter, picture, and phone call regarding the bass should be saved to be reffered to later. And ANY change in the specs that takes place at any time during the construction (within reason of course, like changing a spec before its already been done) should be made note of on some sort of "master spec sheet". Obviously, some changes were made, so referring to the original spec sheet, if you hadn't notated the changes on it, is careless.
Also, the only reason I can see that the basses you make would cost more than you charge is because of the rediculously long amount of time it takes to make them (considering you are being paid for your labor). Which by my thought, NO bass should be in construction that long in the first place. I've seen more intricate/complex basses (even my Stambaugh) be completed in much, much less time. If the actual build time for a bass like this is 30-40 months, then you should be working on smaller batches of basses, and just have a longer waiting list. That way a smaller number of basses could get more individual attention.
I don't know how exactly you build basses, but I just don't see why it should take that long when TONS of other luthiers do simmilarly amazing work in such a shorter amount of time.
Tell me, what exactly makes Tribal's bass so complicated anyways? Aside from the scroll, and the (small) inlay, it doesn't seem especially complex
Ken Bebensee said:
ken is leaving out some very important details!
A.) wheres the roman numeral I next to that pathetic inlay
b>) where is the conversation we had 4 years ago after he recieved the order form , locking down that it was to be flamed maple.
c.) I did pay $200 for the ziricot, which at that time I bought from cook woods and I have a reciept.
d.) wheres my email DETAILING WHERE THE Pickups were to be- another thing he lost.
e.)I have ever email ken repied to and they were all at the very minimum 4-6 months apart (I have proof, I kept the emails) and he only returned one call oevr 4 years
Ken has no documentation only his story that DOSENT ALIGN with the paper trail.
and he also fails to mention that in that email he wanted me to send him the bass and keep my money in order to help "sell the bass"
F.) I asked for and I quote " a wolrd famous wood metal bridge thats 4 way adjustable.
is that an excuse to give me what I ended up with, a bunch of saddles on a rouglhy shaped piece of ziricote.
g.) the body stripes on the form were to be wenge, they are ziricote, which dosent glue well to cocobolo.
the saddles were buffed and are scuffed when they arrived new!
the holes where the srting balls fit dont fit and their very hard to get out, if you can!
and after all that told me to yes quote ken
" I am tired of slaving over your instrument" not offering to change the pup placement after screwing it up.
or why theres a crack in the body wood
or why theres a crack in the cocobolo that he supplied.
and yes the total was for me $4375.00
I never said it was exactly 5k that was just a number I shot out at the beginginng to estimate the cost to anyone who PM'd me I told them exactly that it was in fact $4375.00 plus four years i'll never get back+ this headache
jay T can affirm this.
I'd be glad to set up a post in my forum whit all of the emails ken replied to and their respective dates and information
kens leaving out some very important details and still gives no excuse for his lack of care about me dumping thousands of dollars into a bass that -by the paper- was not what I ordered
and it was in that phone conversation wioth ken he told me that he dosent use poly only oil. and he already had my $2k and a month had already passed in time.
I have facts , ken has a conviently abbreviated version of the real story.
oh yea and that "complex bass" is no harder than the one I am building myself right now and with great success not being a master but a beginner.
go to the luthiers corner and look for yourself
and it is going to better than his, he didnt even smooth out the horn, its flat and rough on the inside! not even rounded at all.
www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278613&page=3
also he says he communocates with everyone, why is there another on this forum with an achtop guitar trying to sue because ken wont return his calls/emails?
I call BS on that!
:scowl:
Lokire, you hit the nail on the head. There is a huge difference between PROFESSIONAL builders and hacks. 
Lokire said:There should be no issues with clarity of what the customer wants. If there is something that you are unclear about, regarding a customers order, then it is your responsibility to contact the person and find out exactly what they had in mind. There's no excuse for doing things wrong like what seems to have happened here.
It seems to me like you have a problem with organization, and when a bass like this is being build over 3-4 years, that's something you have to keep track of very carefully. Every e-mail, letter, picture, and phone call regarding the bass should be saved to be reffered to later. And ANY change in the specs that takes place at any time during the construction (within reason of course, like changing a spec before its already been done) should be made note of on some sort of "master spec sheet". Obviously, some changes were made, so referring to the original spec sheet, if you hadn't notated the changes on it, is careless.
Also, the only reason I can see that the basses you make would cost more than you charge is because of the rediculously long amount of time it takes to make them (considering you are being paid for your labor). Which by my thought, NO bass should be in construction that long in the first place. I've seen more intricate/complex basses (even my Stambaugh) be completed in much, much less time. If the actual build time for a bass like this is 30-40 months, then you should be working on smaller batches of basses, and just have a longer waiting list. That way a smaller number of basses could get more individual attention.
I don't know how exactly you build basses, but I just don't see why it should take that long when TONS of other luthiers do simmilarly amazing work in such a shorter amount of time.
Tell me, what exactly makes Tribal's bass so complicated anyways? Aside from the scroll, and the (small) inlay, it doesn't seem especially complex
heres his email verbatim. how sweet
and I have pictures of the cracked cocobolo I will attach in a few minutes.
"
| Inbox
Hi Todd
I can help you sell your bass or you can sell it your self or fix it your self. I will entertain some dialogue with you but I doubt it will make much difference. There was way too much work involved to build an instrument to your ever changing specifications. I have the original order form and drawings you sent. I built the bass according to what you asked for on the order form.
1. you never sent exact measurements of pickup placement and It wasn’t mentioned on the original order form that you wanted something specific as far as placement of the neck pickup. I don’t have any record of that particular email about the pickup placement. I am sorry but I would have put the pickups where you wanted if it was clear.
2. you didn’t ask for a carved wood bridge. You asked for a 4 way adjustable bridge. That wasn’t possible so I made the bridge adjustable in 3 directions. and it is simple enough to make another bridge. The wood bridges aren’t adjustable in the same way.
3. the cocobolo isn’t cracked. There is a small amount of separation between the cocobolo and zircote. However it doesn’t make any difference in tone or structural integrity. The wood you sent wasn’t cured properly and so that is what happens when you try to rush things. If I had another year to build your bass, the wood may have been dry enough to use with out it shrinking. There is no easy way to fix that now. But if you put a polyester or epoxy finish on then it will not be noticeable.
4. the electronic battery compartment is tight and should be so that the batteries don’t rattle around. You could have a bit more material removed and it will fit fine. It already fits well enough, much better than those plastic ones you have on your other bass.
5. the inlay is done as the image you sent. Perhaps you should have sent a copy of the original drawing if you wanted it different. I am not going to touch it again.
6. I have only offered oil finishes for the past 10 years. I don’t have a spray booth, nor do I like the way the plastic finishes feel. It is toxic stuff and my life isn’t worth your vanity. You knew this, I know because I told you at the beginning and I read your post on line about how you were going to clear coat the bass after you got it. the Zircote looks beautiful as it turned out.
7. my intention is to build instruments for people who play music not museums that take instruments away from musicians and put them on silent display. I have over 140 happy customers that all love their instruments as they are. sure there are some people that can nit pick out all the imperfections.
As I mentioned earlier I will help you sell your bass. You can send it back and when I sell it I will return your $4000. Or I can put pictures on my website and you can hold on to the bass and when someone wants to buy it I will put them in contact with you. it cost me every bit of that money you sent to build the bass. I barely make a living doing this kind of work. There is way too much work involved in such custom instruments, with all the details that kept adding on. I work well over 50 hours a week and my hands are worn down and my feet are tired. I do my work with love and it is killing me. I am done with slaving over your bass.
Peace
and He SUPPLIED THE COCOBOLO he couldnt ever remember that! along with the other details like loosing my email about pickup placement, its even drawn out on the original drawing full scale, look a few pages back. just wrong info everywhere, I have all the email like the one above in thier own folder in my email.
I replied with a "go and smoke some more" email .
thats the TRUTH!
good job ken.
and I have pictures of the cracked cocobolo I will attach in a few minutes.
"
| Inbox
Hi Todd
I can help you sell your bass or you can sell it your self or fix it your self. I will entertain some dialogue with you but I doubt it will make much difference. There was way too much work involved to build an instrument to your ever changing specifications. I have the original order form and drawings you sent. I built the bass according to what you asked for on the order form.
1. you never sent exact measurements of pickup placement and It wasn’t mentioned on the original order form that you wanted something specific as far as placement of the neck pickup. I don’t have any record of that particular email about the pickup placement. I am sorry but I would have put the pickups where you wanted if it was clear.
2. you didn’t ask for a carved wood bridge. You asked for a 4 way adjustable bridge. That wasn’t possible so I made the bridge adjustable in 3 directions. and it is simple enough to make another bridge. The wood bridges aren’t adjustable in the same way.
3. the cocobolo isn’t cracked. There is a small amount of separation between the cocobolo and zircote. However it doesn’t make any difference in tone or structural integrity. The wood you sent wasn’t cured properly and so that is what happens when you try to rush things. If I had another year to build your bass, the wood may have been dry enough to use with out it shrinking. There is no easy way to fix that now. But if you put a polyester or epoxy finish on then it will not be noticeable.
4. the electronic battery compartment is tight and should be so that the batteries don’t rattle around. You could have a bit more material removed and it will fit fine. It already fits well enough, much better than those plastic ones you have on your other bass.
5. the inlay is done as the image you sent. Perhaps you should have sent a copy of the original drawing if you wanted it different. I am not going to touch it again.
6. I have only offered oil finishes for the past 10 years. I don’t have a spray booth, nor do I like the way the plastic finishes feel. It is toxic stuff and my life isn’t worth your vanity. You knew this, I know because I told you at the beginning and I read your post on line about how you were going to clear coat the bass after you got it. the Zircote looks beautiful as it turned out.
7. my intention is to build instruments for people who play music not museums that take instruments away from musicians and put them on silent display. I have over 140 happy customers that all love their instruments as they are. sure there are some people that can nit pick out all the imperfections.
As I mentioned earlier I will help you sell your bass. You can send it back and when I sell it I will return your $4000. Or I can put pictures on my website and you can hold on to the bass and when someone wants to buy it I will put them in contact with you. it cost me every bit of that money you sent to build the bass. I barely make a living doing this kind of work. There is way too much work involved in such custom instruments, with all the details that kept adding on. I work well over 50 hours a week and my hands are worn down and my feet are tired. I do my work with love and it is killing me. I am done with slaving over your bass.
Peace
and He SUPPLIED THE COCOBOLO he couldnt ever remember that! along with the other details like loosing my email about pickup placement, its even drawn out on the original drawing full scale, look a few pages back. just wrong info everywhere, I have all the email like the one above in thier own folder in my email.
I replied with a "go and smoke some more" email .
thats the TRUTH!
good job ken.
Attachments
tribal3140 said:
Ken,
It's just hard to believe that someone could consider four years to be a rush job. Another year? How 'bout another decade?
For most builders, a large chunk of the build time is in the poly finishing process, but you're not even doing that.
If you think that five years is an acceptable wait time, I suggest that you're really out-of-touch with the wait times of other fine custom builders.
